Field

[Anonymously]

I saw that Field is one of the maps being remade for Renegade X, and this was bittersweet news to me. Sweet because Field has always been a consistent player count rising map for servers in Renegade, regardless of the gametype. It's also always been the most popular 1v1 clanwar map in Renegade. However, and here is the part that concerns me; Field has always been a nod dominated map (in anything greater than a 1v1).

In AOW, nod is able to dominate by having their arties shoot the WF from a rather large distance away, with room for cover from fire, as well as cover for technicians. GDI generally has a hard time regaining field control after nod has taken it for this reason as well. GDI can take the field back and "pointwhore" the HoN, but it has always been harder to maintain the field on Field (no pun intended) for GDI than it has nod; as well as the overall points earned possibility being less.

In marathon, the same happens, except it is less pointwhoring, and more focusing all fire on a single building at once. Once again, largely favoring Nod. The simple truth of it all is that the Nod Artillery is more superior to the MRLS on this particular map. To get a better understanding of this, please view this:

Canyon - Small: GDI: 63 Nod: 50 - Big: GDI: 1020 Nod: 888 - Combined: GDI: 1083 Nod: 938 = 1083 to 938

City - Small: GDI: 20 Nod: 42 - Big: GDI: 339 Nod: 521 - Combined: GDI: 359 Nod: 563 = 359 to 563

City Flying - Small: GDI: 19 Nod: 31 - Big: GDI: 387 Nod: 611 - Combined: GDI: 406 Nod: 642 = 406 to 642

Complex - Small: GDI: 75 Nod: 74 - Big: GDI: 1185 Nod: 1623 - Combined: GDI: 1260 Nod: 1697 = 1260 to 1697

Field - Small: GDI: 13 Nod: 34 - Big: GDI: 303 Nod: 687 - Combined: GDI: 316 Nod: 721 = 316 to 721

Glacier Flying - Small: GDI: 20 Nod: 32 - Big: GDI: 395 Nod: 471 - Combined: GDI: 415 Nod: 503 = 415 to 503

Hourglass - Small: GDI: 10 Nod: 20 - Big: GDI: 262 Nod: 573 - Combined: GDI: 272 Nod: 593 = 272 to 593

Islands - Small: GDI: 50 Nod: 47 - Big: GDI: 807 Nod: 1068 - Combined: GDI: 857 Nod: 1115 = 857 to 1115

Mesa - Small: GDI: 25 Nod: 27 - Big: GDI: 512 Nod: 461 - Combined: GDI: 537 Nod: 488 = 537 to 488

Under - Small: GDI: 13 Nod: 31 - Big: GDI: 460 Nod: 466 - Combined: GDI: 473 Nod: 497 = 473 to 497

Volcano - Small: GDI: 89 Nod: 90 - Big: GDI: 1339 Nod: 1316 - Combined: GDI: 1428 Nod: 1406 = 1428 to 1406

Walls - Small: GDI: 26 Nod: 22 - Big: GDI: 469 Nod: 486 - Combined: GDI: 495 Nod: 508 = 495 to 508

Walls Flying - Small: GDI: 63 Nod: 54 - Big: GDI: 974 Nod: 831 - Combined: GDI: 1037 Nod: 885 = 1037 to 885

These are Renegade's core maps as played on in a Renegade marathon server with minimal server adjustments (the server is Jelly, and the stats are relatively recent). You'll notice that Nod has the general advantage on most of the maps, but that advantage is the largest on Field (by quite a bit, may I add).

Now, I know that Renegade X is not Renegade, and that there are different guns, gun functionality, vehicles, and vehicle functionality. However, all vehicles are the same, and work relatively the same from what I've seen (with the biggest apparent change being the rotating MRLS that was not included in stock Renegade). I think that if Field maintained the same map layout, very similar results would occur. From what I can tell from the trailer, it does have a similar layout, and my concern is that this will bring the same Nod dominance over from Renegade.

I do not know the full layout of the map, but I thought I should try and inform the Developers here of the clear dominance of Nod on that map over the years. Now, I know that the Developers are plenty capable, but I figured I would go ahead and add a suggestion to help balance out the map as well. There's two things really that could be done to the map, without completely changing the map layout entirely - you make it harder for the Nod team to hit the WF from the field (which is what Jelly is currently trying to do apparently), or you make it so that the GDI team can more easily attack or penetrate the Nod base. My opinion supports the latter, simply because for one - it'd be rather simple to fix, and for two, it gives the GDI team an actual ability to destroy a building. The suggestion is rather simple, really; Remove the Nod ramp beside the Hand of Nod. The ramp gives Nod a distinct defending advantage, and makes it so that GDI only has one very small path to form a rush into. Without it, GDI can penetrate the Nod base much more easily, and it gives them much more of a fighting chance.

Like I said, for all I know, this could already be fixed, or it could be a general non-issue with the gameplay changes already implemented. I'm simply voicing my concerns and offering a suggestion if this was overlooked. Thanks for reading.

[cirex]

You cannot use the win/lose of Renegade on Ren-X maps. As you said, they are remakes, not 100% copy paste. Even in February, it probably will still be a WIP project. So probably some stuff would need to be reconsidered, but the most of these balancing is being worked on with these weekly testing-sessions.

Theoretically: NOD is known as a more DPS faction while GDI can be considered as the tanker faction (talking in MMORPG terms). With these airstrikes, it will be pretty hard for nod to hold a line for long period of time, they will probably (note: testing and balancing is still going on) rely more on their strike and surprise element, instead of being the nearly undestructable wall. While GDI with heavy armored mammoths could survive an airstrike with some luck (or maybe even easy, depends on the situation). However this is just theoretical, and I don't know how effective these airstrikes and the weapons and tanks will be in the final release, and there is more going on on a battlefield so the success of a team could rely on more as just whoring or fighting a whore.

Giving feedback on balance and bugs is what we do as testers do. And that is what we will keep doing till the final release, while the game in its current phase is not 100% perfectly balanced (but pretty well balanced so far), it still gives a fair fight in its current state. On all test-matches both teams had their success.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

I believe the rotating turret of the MRLS will make a big difference here, as this allows GDI to shoot the enemy base more easily from a distance early in the game, putting both teams in a comparable situation. Then there off course are possible map changes Cirex mentioned...

[A-Rodge]

@anonymously

I really like your attention to detail in forming your concern, it shows a genuine attachment to the game and a feeling we all share.

I agree with the arty whoring aspect. Usually, with the circumstances you would have 3 or so hotties camping the WF terminal and GDI vehicles disintegrating as they step outside their base. The only tactical option would be to take the tunnels and hope your Havocs could harass the arties out of position. However, that was often met with the insane splash damage an arty salvo could do to the group of the havocs.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

like i've said, this is being solved as MRLS now have a rotating turret, making it a more versatile vehicle in the field. this should (mostly) get rid of the problem.

[Anonymously]

I understand what you're saying, but the fact that the MRLS did not have a rotating turret was one of GDI's biggest advantages on that particular map. I recognize how and why the rotating turret will help them take the field back, but as far as keeping it - well, shooting around corners was something the old MRLS was uniquely skilled at. It'd be cool to see a feature that allowed the MRLS to lock into any specific position with the click of a button; so that this ability is not completely removed.

I also know that it is not copy-paste, believe me on that. However, the map design is almost the same, and the vehicles are all relatively the same. With Nod winning over two times more games than GDI on the map, I doubt that much would change with only the vehicle and weapon changes. I think it's the design of the map that has to be edited; if it has not yet been, of course.

Also, Cirex, if you're using "DPS" as an initialism for Damage Per Second, then I'd have to disagree on that one. The nod faction is quicker and more stealthier for the most part, but they do not have a greater overall DPS. The overall "DPS" is generally equal. The main difference between the two factions is that GDI units are slower with more health, and nod units are quicker and stealthier, with less health. Hence why the Nod Mobile Artillery is referred to as a "glass cannon unit" (to stick with your MMORPG references).

[Ban4life]

I agree with the mrls part. Its greatest asset has been reduced by the rotating turret. If the lock function is added, its strategic importance is suddenly so much higher. Also preventing rockets to follow would be a great addition, as arties at the hon will suddenly be easy to hit. The rockets would follow a directory towards the cursor point instead of the tank middle. These advantages arent limited to field. The rotating turret makes it so much more conventional than the highly specialised weapon that had a great many applications. Sadly also b2b but that has been removed.

Gdi will be more effective, as they have more payload style attacks in the mammoth tank. It has a more payload style rockets and shoits twice with a longer loading time. This paired with the normal stuff and airstrikes should do the trick to break it.

I do not agree about the dps. Only the light tank is less effective damage wise (or equal?). The apc is equal, but fatter (and looks cooler). Buggy and artillery both do more damage than any supposed counterpart. Granted, the stank does not do more damage than the mammoth but has stealth. The flame tank is a very high damage dealer, even if you alt fire (shoot flames out of the left nozzle only at nearly double damage, even if it shows 2 flames)

《Edit》sorry for tripple post, telephone flipped a bit

[Anonymously]

When you're taking DPS of a game that is more complicated than an MMORPG, you have to take more into factor than just the damage per second; as weird as that sounds. If we're talking about just damage to a stagnant structure such as a building, then the DPS is *relatively* equal. Renegade's mammoth tank is a faster building killer than every other vehicle in the game. The rockets do more DPS than the flame tank, the stealth tank, and the Mobile Artillery. The medium tank also does more DPS than the light tank to buildings. So, GDI definitely has a lot of DPS ability, but overall against a stagnant building, it's relatively equal since Nod has more options that do high damage, whereas GDI has few options that do a slightly higher damage. Also, for the record, the buggy and the humvee do the exact same damage to every unit in the game. Alternative fire in a flame tank was also removed from Renegade with the release of scripts 4.0 serverside (it was proven to be a glitch/error in the code).

Against vehicles is where DPS gets complicated. This is where warheads, armor types, amount of armor/health, RoF, and reload time come into play. When you're talking about DPS in Renegade, it's complicated to calculate. You have to take into account what it is you are shooting, because the damage dealt differs between vehicles armor types, depending on the specific warhead that the vehicle is using to attack that vehicle. The exception to this is the shell warhead (medium tank, apache/orca rockets, light tank, mammoth tank, mobile artillery, mrls, stealth tank), where vehicles using this warhead do an equal damage to all vehicle armor types. Even then though, you have to take into account that these tanks all have their own RoF, reload time, and armor.

I have a bit of time on my hands right now, so i'll write out a bit of the stats/calculations for you:

We're going to ignore the APC's and buggy/humvee, since these are all the same, with the exception that the humvee has 50 more overall HP than the buggy.

We also have to assume full accuracy in order to do these calculations (there's no other definitive way).

Mobile Artillery: 92 damage to every vehicle per successful shot. 1.5 second reload time (1.5 second RoF). 400 HP.

MRLS: 234 damage to every vehicle per clip (39 per shot). ~2 seconds RoF per clip. Clip size = 6. 3 second reload time. 400 HP.

It takes the Arty 5 shots total to kill an MRLS. That's 6 seconds total to kill the MRLS

It takes the MRLS 11 shots to kill an Arty. Meaning just under 7 seconds (closer to 6.6) to kill the Arty.

The Artillery barely wins that comparison.

Just to save my self a bit of time here now, I'm going to just tell you the time it takes for each tank to kill an opposing tank, rather then write out the calculations (now that you know how it is done).

A med tank will kill a light tank in 15 seconds.

A light tank will kill a med tank in 24 seconds.

Med tank easily wins.

A medium tank will kill a flame tank in 19.5 seconds.

A flame tank will kill a med tank in 10 seconds.

Easy win for the flame tank, as long as it starts off right next to the med tank and never misses from either side of the turret.

A mammoth tank will kill a stealth tank in 6 seconds with it's rockets.

A stealth tank will kill a mammoth tank in 21 seconds.

Easy win for the mammoth tank, as expected.

A mammoth tank will kill a flame tank in 11 seconds with it's rockets.

A flame tank will kill a mammoth tank in 15 seconds.

The mammoth tank wins this round too, as expected.

Note that none of these are 100% exact, but a close round.

The mammoth tank combined with the med tank are the reasons the overall DPS is actually slightly higher for GDI, when the other base calculations are being put in. The reason that they are actually relatively the same is because of the other factors that are really impossible to accurately calculate (movement speed/ability to avoid bullets, stealth, actual velocity in an active gameplay setting, bullet distance, etc.). Keep in mind that these are also solely 1v1 calculations. Everything changes when more units are added into play, and especially when a repairing unit comes into play. So, for one, there's a reason the usage of "DPS" isn't used in games like this - it's impossible to accurately calculate. For two, if you do the base calculations, the relative "DPS" is actually quite balanced between faction. And for three, there is simply too many factors to take into consideration to possibly compare the two teams (which is why i originally had used an end game results comparison in my first post). That's what makes Renegade fun and unique. It's not just a FPS with tanks and units, but it's a game that offers so much more than that.

I'm just saying that on Field - Nod has the clear upperhand in the original Renegade, and I felt the need to let the development team here become aware of that, and the reasons for it.

[Ban4life]

I still think it is weird. GDI seems to have enough chances, especially with teamwork.

Even if GDI has a disadvantage, I think its not a disadvantage that is bad. Even when losing, the fun is still there. There is enough to move around and not get sniped inside your base (most often), you often have adequate credits and there are enough ways to strike back. That is in my own experience of course. I myself even like it if you have to fight hard and sell your hide for enormous prices. I can be the underdog in a few games without getting annoyed. Winning is all the sweeter too. Just don't let it get into the league games and maybe wait for the release to see if the changed vehicles, systems and added airstrikes will make a difference.

[Anonymously]

Having one team be fun to play isn't enough though. If that were the case there'd likely be racetracks inside the GDI base on Field. It's about balance. The fact that it's fun to you is just one person's opinion. The truth is that most people play the game to have fun and to win. I'm one of those people - I hate losing. Especially if I'm doing my absolute best and my team is outplaying the other team, but we still lose. That's the case on Field because of the poor map layout for the Renegade gameplay. An over 2:1 ratio for Nod in terms of winning should tell you something is wrong with the map design and needs to be changed.

[Ban4life]

If you want it to be fair, you should first look at the build of the teams, not the maps. NOD wins in most maps more often, and doesn't lose much on the other maps. City, City Flying, complex, hourglass and field NOD wins very often. Canyon, glacier, Islands, Under and walls they are more or less tied. Only Walls Flying GDI seems to have a real good upper hand.

Pointing out a map lay-out fault might just be that the advantage of NOD is more amplified than the advantage of GDI. Resolving team balance might push GDI to use its advantage better and the map would not need to be changed. This is a better course of action than changing every single map.

Lets be fair. NOD is a faction that has a lot of firepower in both units and tanks. They lack in health for their tanks, but they often make up for it in stealth, range, quick travel time of bullets, able to shoot over other tanks (arty over the light tank, stank over the light tank) specific units for all occasions (flametank for those base rushes) and raw awesomeness. GDI has firepower and health with a hefty price tag. The Mammoth in Renegade-mint wasn't even good until the last changes where made and it is still a tank you only take because you have too much money. The tanks of GDI aren't intuitively used excellent, making them vulnerable to NOD tactics. I mean here that you instantly sneak with a stank and wait for the best moment, while you are more prone to just advancing with a med. This leaves a med more easily vulnerable for stanks for example.

For NOD they toned the artillery down so it would not overpower so much even in the mint version.

This probably why GDI has had a bigger positive overhaul on their vehicles and units in Renegade-X. Rocket pods on the mammoth got better, the supposedly better rotating turret of the MRLS and the better following rockets (if I remember correctly), the tactical rifle and the grenade/shotgun McFarland vs a less loud laser rifle, a meaner looking APC and the stank shoots its rockets just a millisecond after each other. The arty got diminished in a lot of situations due to drop-off. In combination with the airstrike, which will probably beat the shit out of the low health NOD units while GDI can withstand a bombardment, GDI will have a much better position in Renegade-X. I suggest to just wait for Renegade-X to release. If the problem still occurs on a few specific maps, you can suggest map lay-out changes.

[Anonymously]

Nod.* It's not an acronym or initialism.

This is a marathon server only statistics; not a combination of AOW and marathon servers. A huge part of nod's winning percentage in marathon servers is the stealth factor. Most of nod's wins in this particular marathon server comes down to 2 things - the arty being too strong vs buildings for the distance it can shoot; and the stealth advantage. In an AOW setting, the results vary dramatically for most maps. That's simply because as long as GDI can keep their buildings alive, holding the field (with their elite armor) is *generally speaking* easier for GDI on most maps. Holding the field for 30-35 minutes (most AOW timelimits) gets you more points than the other team, so long as you are also shooting buildings and the harvester. It's in marathon mode that GDI struggles greatly, because lets face it - GDI may be great at barricading nod's entrance, but they lack the overall firepower from a distance that the Artillery has. They also don't have the stealth ability that so very often throws off the GDI team. Just knowing that a stealth unit may be lurking around means that you won't be able to repair your own vehicle with nearly as much ease as nod is able to have.

So while I do agree with you that the arty is quite OP (vs buildings with techs repairing them), it's really not what ruins that map in particular. There's a reason the winning ratio for nod on Field in marathon mode is so much higher than all the rest of the maps (70% of the games nod wins). It's the fact that GDI can't kill any buildings 70% of the time. It's so much harder for them to attack or penetrate the nod base than it is for nod to do the same to GDI's base. The real reason why it's a flawed map is that even in AOW the results are the same. Nod wins about the same percentage of games in AOW Field games as well. Nod can attack from a distance and take cover rather easy in the field, whereas GDI cannot. Besides, we're talking about a game that will play differently from the original game anyway. The arty may very well be nerfed; but that doesn't mean that GDI's ability to attack the nod base is increased all that greatly. Fixing the map is the important key here.

I'm simply just informing here. My intention is not to argue, complain, or demand anything at all. I'm just letting people know about the flawed map, and using my knowledge of the game to support it.

[goztow]

I'm very interested in these kind of discussions, having always been very interested in the tactical gameplay in Renegade. I have no experience with Renegade-X yet but I'd like to counter some things that Anonymously has stated for Renegade and I'd like to issue a warning.

First of all I'd like to thank the TS for opening this type of discussions and for his well constructed arguments. It seems to me however, that what anonymously is pointing out is not map related but is related to the server setup of Jelly server.

Jelly's main server is marathon and 51 players. Most of the time it has 24+ players.

TK2 (my clan) has ran public and CW servers up to max 20 players with standard AOW setup for many years. My experience learned me that with proper teamwork, GDI was more or less unbeatable on Field on our server setup. One of the reasons was actually Renegade's stock vehicle limit. Renegade has a vehicle limit of 7 tanks + the harvester.

For the sake of the argument, I will make some very simple comparaisons, that aren't 100 % realistic but that will make things clearer.

Let's say you play a 5v5 game. GDI gets 5 Meds while Nod will get 3 arts with 2 technicians. The 5 Meds will always slaughter the 3 arts when fighting as a group. They will also slaughter 5 arts if they have no dedicated repairers.

Let's say you have 10v10. GDI has 7 Meds + 3 snipers. Nod has 7 arts + 3 techs. Guess who will win?

But let's say you have 20v20. GDI has 7 meds + 7 repairers + . Nod has 7 arts + 7 repairers + . In this situation, Nod will have the advantage thanks to the splash and the range of the art. It has also been proven to be much harder to get teamwork going in these larger games.

You could point out that a flaw in my comparaison is to compare Meds (800) with arts (450). But let's be honnest, this is very often what it turns out to. Guess why the GDI soldier does more damage than the Nod soldier? So GDI has a bigger chance of destroying the enemy harvester while keeping its own. In very early game, Nod has a disadvantage on its economy, which is some what compensated by early access to artilleries. If GDI can keep Nod off until it gains access to the meds, then...

A 2nd element is the marathon element and server added options like donating or starting credits. IMO marathon is a very unnatural game mode for Renegade on base defense maps. It is simply too easy to defend on a map like Field or Under or even city flying. The thrill of having very even points at the end of a game can be much more exciting than waiting for the enemy to get bored and start making mistakes and then loosing a building. I remember a game (internal training clan war with TK2) where we won the game thanks to a raveshaw hitting a building in the last second. 50 points difference! What a thrill on teamspeak . Donating and starting credits in early game take out the advantage GDI has at the game start for their economy. What's the use of have an advantage in taking out Nod's harvester if Nod can simply donate or use starting credits to get their arts anyway?

Now it's surely true that GDI seems to require some more teamwork on Field, but if you have this teamwork, then I dare to say that (on servers with up to 24 players anyways), GDI has a better chance of winning than Nod. Ask any clanwar player if they prefer GDI or Nod on standard field (with a time limit), they'll answer GDI.

TS seems to make the mistake of "judging" (for a lack of a better word) the map on the building placements. IMO Renegade is a tank game. It doesn't matter where the enemy building is, if you own the field with tanks.

To end this post just a friendly warning. Do not make the mistake that many server owners made in Renegade. Do not start changing unit's characteristics because you think one side or one map is biased towars one or the other side. There will always be people saying GDI is OP or Nod is OP. In reality, by some miracle Westwood managed to make Renegade very balanced on different types of games (rush maps, base defense maps, small, big, ...). The more you are going to change the original characteristics, the more problems you will have because changing one unit will always have consequences for other units.

I'm also very aware that Renegade will not be Renegade-x. But the comparaison will be inevitable. So let's use our experience in Renegade to improove Renegade-X.

[Anonymously]

Jelly's main server is marathon and 51 players. Most of the time it has 24+ players.

The small game section is taken into account in the original post's statistics. You are right that Jelly normally does have a high player count (as proven by the numbers), however, the stats still favor nod drastically (34-13); and even moreso, in the smaller game atmosphere at Jelly than the bigger games.

TK2 (my clan) has ran public and CW servers up to max 20 players with standard AOW setup for many years. My experience learned me that with proper teamwork, GDI was more or less unbeatable on Field on our server setup. One of the reasons was actually Renegade's stock vehicle limit. Renegade has a vehicle limit of 7 tanks + the harvester.

In my experience, with two equal skilled teams, nod will win 90% of the games on Field, regardless of the player count or vehicle limit. A lower vehicle count actually favors nod more than GDI when you take into account that Nod has the ability to utilize technicians more than GDI has the ability to utilize hotwires on Field.

Let's say you play a 5v5 game. GDI gets 5 Meds while Nod will get 3 arts with 2 technicians. The 5 Meds will always slaughter the 3 arts when fighting as a group.

Oh? I respectfully disagree.

Allow me to use a bit of mathematical proof as evidence.

A single tech'd arty will kill a med tank in ~13 seconds.

A single med will kill a tech'd arty in ~5 minutes (yes, you read that right).

Now, what you're saying is that (somehow) GDI was able to get 5 med tanks, and for whatever reason, nod only decided to get 3 arties and 2 technicians. Once again, somehow, all of these tanks happened to meet in the field at the exact same time. Taking away the improbability of this to begin with, nod will still manage to win out a cool majority of the time if we're talking about experienced and quality players. I could put scenarios in all day to prove it; but to save time, I simply put the end game results in statistical format in the original post.

A 2nd element is the marathon element and server added options like donating or starting credits.

Starting credits at the Jelly marathon in specific are the default 0, and donations are not allowed until something like 3 or 5 minutes in. The only difference is the crate giving more than the default crate gives.

What's the use of have an advantage in taking out Nod's harvester if Nod can simply donate or use starting credits to get their arts anyway?

I'm not certain how little you play anymore, but Jelly has never had starting credits, and donation is only turned on after a timelimit, as previously stated.

Now it's surely true that GDI seems to require some more teamwork on Field, but if you have this teamwork, then I dare to say that (on servers with up to 24 players anyways), GDI has a better chance of winning than Nod.

Not when the teams are of equal skill level...

Ask any clanwar player if they prefer GDI or Nod on standard field (with a time limit), they'll answer GDI.

I'll go ahead and ask myself then. I prefer nod every damn time. The most recent 5 1v1 Field games I played (against elite players, have you), I went 4-1. I was nod in 3 and GDI in 2. I won all 3 with nod, and one with GDI. Nod went 4-1 in the games. I'm a very experienced player (having played clanwars, lobby wars, community wars, etc. pretty often). I've played both with you and against you before as well. I don't remember you ever participating in a clanwar, but I remember you in community wars in particular. I also know you from Renegadeforums.com, where you used to actively moderate. I'm just unsure on how much actual small game Field experience you have if you honestly believe GDI is superior on the map? Not to offend, but it can't be a whole lot against real elite players...

TS seems to make the mistake of "judging" (for a lack of a better word) the map on the building placements. IMO Renegade is a tank game. It doesn't matter where the enemy building is, if you own the field with tanks.

In AOW, hitting buildings gets your more points than anything else. Getting more points wins you the game. In marathon, you have to hit a building or rush a building to win the game. Nod has a huge advantage in hitting buildings and rushing buildings on Field. I'm not judging the map on the building placements, I'm criticizing the layout of the map, and providing statistical evidence proving that it is flawed in that it drastically favors one faction.

To end this post just a friendly warning. Do not make the mistake that many server owners made in Renegade. Do not start changing unit's characteristics because you think one side or one map is biased towars one or the other side. There will always be people saying GDI is OP or Nod is OP. In reality, by some miracle Westwood managed to make Renegade very balanced on different types of games (rush maps, base defense maps, small, big, ...). The more you are going to change the original characteristics, the more problems you will have because changing one unit will always have consequences for other units.

My suggestion was to get rid of the ramp next to the Hand of Nod. In no way was I suggesting editing any unit. It's not really "some miracle" neither. Though Westwood and EA did not glitch test the game very well, they spent the majority of their time balance testing. If you look at the objects files or the damage calculations in Renegade, you'd probably understand that more.

[goztow]

I'm not sure 1v1 games are or have ever been indicative of team work. I suggest you do not take these into account. I do, however, respect you for your experience and I will take your word for being an experienced and skillful player. I'm happy to have find you on these forums / this game :-).

A lower vehicle count actually favors nod more than GDI when you take into account that Nod has the ability to utilize technicians more than GDI has the ability to utilize hotwires on Field.

Yes, this was indeed what I was stating. On larger player counts, Nod is favoured by this. On lower player counts it does not interfere.

Oh? I respectfully disagree.

Allow me to use a bit of mathematical proof as evidence.

A single tech'd arty will kill a med tank in ~13 seconds.

A single med will kill a tech'd arty in ~5 minutes (yes, you read that right).

Now, what you're saying is that (somehow) GDI was able to get 5 med tanks, and for whatever reason, nod only decided to get 3 arties and 2 technicians. Once again, somehow, all of these tanks happened to meet in the field at the exact same time. Taking away the improbability of this to begin with, nod will still manage to win out a cool majority of the time if we're talking about experienced and quality players. I could put scenarios in all day to prove it; but to save time, I simply put the end game results in statistical format in the original post.

Not somehow... It's a 5v5 game. It is probable that when you're working as a team, GDI will try to get a majority of medium tanks while Nod will get a majority of teched arts. Yes, I made it a bit "simple", every game is different of course. And if you work as a team, you will try to move out more or less as a group. And of course the medium tanks will not just stand there and shoot the arts from a distance, they will push forward to attack the arts / technicians. Will this happen very often? From my personal experience, Field with equal teams working together was a game of taking / loosing the field, so yes... I must add that once GDI gets their meds into position at med hill / around the Nod tiberium area, it's pretty darn hard to get them out of there.

In my experience, with two equal skilled teams, nod will win 90% of the games on Field, regardless of the player count or vehicle limit.

I respectfully disagree. Evil white dragon used to keep statistics on this for our servers (TK2 and BI) and they showed an almost 50 / 50 win / loss ratio on all standard maps. I found a reference back here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php ... msg_326294 . Yes, it dates from 2008, but the game hasn't changed. I'll ask him if he still has the details, but I doubt it.

As said before, from my personal experience (in smaller games), GDI had an advantage at the game start with their better rifle soldiers attacking / defending the harv (+ getting the very important crate!) and the grenadiers racking up points (hence credits) through tunnels, while Nod had quicker access to their tanks but less armour. This balances out quite nicely.

I do not know what the exact setup of Jelly currently is. I should have pointed out that donations / starting credits was not a specific argument against your statistics. I'm not actually trying to argument against your stats anyway, they are what they are and they clearly show that on Jelly server you will have a higher probability to win when playing on Nod. I just wanted to point out that these statistics are only representative for the server that generated them and that other people may have a different experience on other servers.

We will see how it rolls once RenX, with its own specifics, will be released / beta tested. Until then we're speculating. It's good to seei nterest .

In AOW, hitting buildings gets your more points than anything else. Getting more points wins you the game. In marathon, you have to hit a building or rush a building to win the game. Nod has a huge advantage in hitting buildings and rushing buildings on Field. I'm not judging the map on the building placements, I'm criticizing the layout of the map, and providing statistical evidence proving that it is flawed in that it drastically favors one faction.

I'm stating that it does not matter that much, you either get the field (winning tank battles) or you don't. The difference is not as drastic as it is on islands, where GDI can shoot the Nod buildings from its closest island.

I actually don't disagree with your suggestions of taking off the hand ramp. I read / heard that RenX wants to make maps more open. I'm 100 % in favour of this. If anything, the more different ways to destroy a base, the better. I just think it will not make much of a difference.

I guess what triggered my warning bells was the first a part of this sentence:

The arty may very well be nerfed

But I now understand that this wasn't actually a suggestion of your own. So peace and I'll hopefully see you on the battlefield .

[Anonymously]

Not somehow... It's a 5v5 game. It is probable that when you're working as a team, GDI will try to get a majority of medium tanks while Nod will get a majority of teched arts.

If I was leading this 5v5 game, there'd be 2 lights and 3 arts with techs inside the arts using cover, while the light tanks are up front trying to draw and evade the fire. It'd be kind of stupid for a nod team to try to use 3 arts with 2 techs in the first place if they have the credits to get light tanks instead (they should if each GDI player has 800+ credits).

I must add that once GDI gets their meds into position at med hill / around the Nod tiberium area, it's pretty darn hard to get them out of there.

I agree. GDI can barricade nod quite efficiently on Field. They would have to do that for the full 30-35 minutes (if we're talking competitive play) for them to win though. If nod even takes the field for 5 minutes, they will take the lead normally. The Arty's ability to hit the WF from such a great distance and do so much damage cannot be matched by GDI's ability to hit the hon closeup with a medium tank, meanwhile nod has tech'd arties firing back at them. If they rushed in together, they'd be killed immediately, and then nod would take the field. If all 5 try and hold the field, 1 nod simply lays a nuke, forcing 1 GDI player to suicide. That nod player either defends the nuke or rejoins the battle to retake field. Then nod has successfully taken the field back 9/10 times. It's just too hard for GDI to do as much damage as Nod can.

I respectfully disagree. Evil white dragon used to keep statistics on this for our servers (TK2 and BI) and they showed an almost 50 / 50 win / loss ratio on all standard maps. I found a reference back here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php ... msg_326294 . Yes, it dates from 2008, but the game hasn't changed. I'll ask him if he still has the details, but I doubt it.

I'm very curious to see if that has any actual proof behind it, or is just a mere claim to try and make Renegade look better than the game in comparison. I've played in both the TK2 and BI servers (I even helped test BI servers from time to time), and the results were the same. Jelly had multiple AOW servers (including mini), and though no stats were ever published to my knowledge; having played there, I can say that it was the same. On Field I barely even have to try to win as nod on public servers, but on GDI I have to try hard and still have to rely on a better overall team to win the game. I'd be very shocked if EWD or SE have actual evidence of these numbers, rather than it simply being a hopeful claim.

As said before, from my personal experience (in smaller games), GDI had an advantage at the game start with their better rifle soldiers attacking / defending the harv (+ getting the very important crate!)

Yes, GDI has the early game advantage on any map because of their superior automatic rifle damage. This plays a gigantic role on map like city/city_fly, but not too great on Field. For one, if the teams are of equal skill, nod should almost always still be able to defend and keep their harvester alive. And for two, Even if GDI kills the nod harvester, they still have to wait in order to purchase their first med tank. The 300 credit drop from the harvester won't be enough for them. They'd get a MRLS at best. It still gives nod enough time to purchase their first arty before a GDI med can take the field. Keep in mind that the stock Renegade crate spawns either mid tunnel or on the nod side, so nod usually has an advantage in getting that crate.

I just wanted to point out that these statistics are only representative for the server that generated them and that other people may have a different experience on other servers.

These are simply the only final win ratio statistics I could find. I've been playing the game since it's 2002 release and have experienced the same overall nod dominance on the map since then, regardless of the server.

We will see how it rolls once RenX, with its own specifics, will be released / beta tested. Until then we're speculating. It's good to seei nterest .

Yes I agree. Once again, this was simply to inform using my Renegade knowledge; I recognize that your intentions are the same and I respect that.

I'm stating that it does not matter that much, you either get the field (winning tank battles) or you don't.

It's what happens after the Field is taken that I am pointing out. I've only seen a handful of games where a GDI team has successfully held the Field from start to end. I'm pointing out that Nod's ability to gain points/do building damage on Field is so much easier than GDI's ability to do the same, that it ends up being easy for nod to win. GDI can have the Field for 25 minutes, and nod can have it for 10, and nod would end up winning by points the majority of the time.

I actually don't disagree with your suggestions of taking off the hand ramp. I read / heard that RenX wants to make maps more open. I'm 100 % in favour of this. If anything, the more different ways to destroy a base, the better. I just think it will not make much of a difference.

I think it would make a huge difference personally.

Thanks for keeping the argument peaceful and informative so far.

[goztow]

He showed me the stats back then. So yes I think they were correct.

What is your ren nick / nicks?

[Anonymously]

Any chance you still have logs/access to the stats?

As the name and signature suggest, I would prefer to remain anonymous.

[goztow]

No problem. Fresh start and all? I asked them from EWD.

Also, if you want to make the precise calculations of DPS: http://static2.blackintel.org/files/bla ... oninfo.xls (thanks to EWD ).

[Anonymously]

Yep.

That's the same file I've been using all along. That along with some of my own calculations that take warhead and armortype into consideration

[Jam]

Please stay ontopic.

[RoundShades]

Hourglass was always what I heard complaint on. Field is universally loved, played on all game modes, and I thought was relatively fair, with no arbitrary b2b rules but a bit of tun beac rules.

nonetheless, sounds like a simple solution of testing field distances for structural visuals, and adjusting the position of a rock or mountain edge to adjust.

anything and everything can be balanced with simple numbers and placement.

[Ban4life]

After some thought, I think that the ramp can be changed too. This is independent of the reasons that have been given so far. I think that both teams have a good position when camping. GDI can kill any tank or unit that dares to attack really quickly, except for the artillery behind the ramp. This artillery behind the ramp can still be attacked by mammoth tanks, meds, snipers etc. It falls in a mid-level difficulty when attacking that artillery. Now is that artillery nearly the only thing that stands between a GDI victory (by points mostly) and sheer and utter defeat. That is when GDI doesn't rush or Nod doesn't let the HON die quickly. GDI cannot rush very well against Nod, as the corridor towards the rest of the base is small, creating a death funnel. In Marathon you can still gain enough mammoth tanks (which have become a lot more useful since some upgrades in rocket length and such), meds and APC+Ion to effectively rush.

It has been suggested to remove the ramp next to the HoN. I think that would make the position of Nod too weak. They cannot field any troops without being pounded mercilessly, nor make GDI's position a weaker by their fire. Nod could try and attack from a great distance behind the HoN, but it would still be so much less effective.

I think that the solution is more fair if you don't remove the ramp, but make it accessible for vehicles and units from both sides. This way it will still provide the cover needed for Nod as well as giving GDI the opportunity to invade the base with more ease (giving them a target they could already attack, but also a obi shielded pathway to gain access to the rest of the base).

But that does not really counter your main problem. The ramp from where Nod can fire to the GDI camp is still there. You have 2 arguments why GDI doesn't win. One is that GDI often loses field at the beginning and Nod will grind them for points from afar (mind you, GDI is still able to field units with much less danger than Nod in the reverse situation). If GDI finally gets traction and wins the field, they have little ways to grind out points (you can always attack the HoN but whatever), or invade the base. Now you solve only the one? If the first problem is the ramp at GDI, make it so that artillery cant climb it. There is still some space below for them all to attack, but only a limited amount can attack any threats now. This will make Nod's position in the field significantly weaker against attack, negating the problem of easy points over a large distance. At least I hope it does.

[Daedhart]

Or the defense towers could be moved in front like on some other maps that almost completely prevents single-building point-farming without taking out the tower first. Maps dont have to be perfectly recreated.

But then...the uniqueness of the maps would be destroyed. Aside from adding new units or heavily modifying the base components of the game (and potentially breaking other maps/strategies), there really isnt a whole lot that can be done aside from giving both sides the exact same units (which would be boring).

IMHO, I like the skewed balance. It gives the game more personality. Sure, Nod may have the advantage on certain maps, but that just makes playing GDI all the more challenging. I play to win, but Im not so distraught about losing that I cant enjoy it. Just make up for it on the next map.

Having said that, I think the ramp removal would be a good compromise on this map in particular.

[ehh]

Just open up the nod entrance, so mrls can hit the hon from behind the nod bunker.

no drastic changes need to be made.