Renegade NEEDS a change to aircraft / snipers VS light vehinc

[frostbyte]

QUOTE (CrazyAndy @ Mar 5 2009, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think if you buy something cheaper than 1000 credits Havoc, it shouldn't be balanced to be exactly as good as Havoc but relatively good. Let's say you buy laser officer for 450 credits and you run into havoc I'm sure you got at least 1:2 (450:1000) aka fifty fifty chance to kill him.

//Random ending//
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renegade_(video_game)[/b]

Well I have to agree that some units are not used allot.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that those units are useless. Some of them are quite usefull if you know how to use them in the right way. For example, the power of a Laser chaingun rush is really underrated and not used frequently enough, however if you get 5 or more, it will litterally melt your enemy's tank away in seconds , it's effective against infantry and buildings too.
Or a chem Rush. Which can take your enemy off by suprise if you can organise it that well. (just to name a few)

I'dd love to see more diversity of units on the field, maybe by making them more vital to posts on the team.

By keeping a "Rock, Paper, Scissors"- mantra. Both 'Infantry vs Infantry wise', and 'Infantry vs Vehicle vs Aircraft wise'

like ... > [ infantry > -vehicle >( aircraft ] > Infantry- > vehicle ) > ...
Come to think of it Renegade has it pretty well worked out, and it works self regulating. 'Infantry vs Vehicle vs Aircraft wise'

The probleme with lack of diversity amoung units lies primairily with the Infantry class. 'Infantry vs Infantry wise'

Possible solution: Perhaps you could make the 'useless' units have diffrent benifits, like making them more agile or run faster, so they don't get shot down that easily from far away by a sniper.
The colour of the units play a vital role too. It's not for nothing that they chose stealth units to be 'Red' when uncloacked
the colour red is the most noticeable to the naked eye. (cfr. traffic lights and car break lights in the rear)
And ofcourse the weapon of the units.


Other units like the Chem sprayer, have a BIG red head and a VERY visible Green outfit, which is sad because the Chem spray weapon is pretty usefull. Lots of people don't pick this unit because the outfit of the unit litteraly makes it a walking claypidgeon.

Maybe by making some units run faster, less visible in therms of colour, or other benifits they might get used more often.

No Airstrip and Ref, makes these low cost units almost a desperate last chance.

Perhaps you could make add the option that if a team loses their Vehicle building, the infantry gets an aditional option like chem suits (walking over tiberium capabilty, haha might be a nice option for a the crates instead) ,faster units, Units inspired by dedication (making the game not over, just because you don't have a Weaps/airstr anymore).

But what IS noticable that is when a team does lose a building, they sometimes tend to work together much more harder than before (teamwork wise). OR they just lose all hope, and fuck around untill the game is over.
So maybe the infantry enhancement thing is not such a great idea. But there is a major diffrence between normal AOW's and Marathon matches when it comes to strategy. I remember some Marathon matches taking AGES, because the team who lost a building had no way of really getting back, or turning the tide of the game, especialy on maps with base defence.


In conclusion,
- Allot of things in Renegade are ballanced in the way that each team almost has a 50% chance of winning , taking in acount that each team has equaly skilled members. And Renegade works self regulating. (Normal maps)


- With the vehicles. I feel the flying coffin' is not used enough. (I don't have a probleme with the Humvee)
The Coffin': Basicly it costs allot, it easily gets you killed (and your team , hence the coffin' and transportation of others doesn't reep any individual rewards.
In battlefield 2. Transporting others , gave you the necessary hours you needed for your flying badge. Comparing BF2 with Ren is like comparing apples with bananas. without a doubt, but I'm making a point.
Point is that in Battlefield 2, It IS stimulating you to fly a transportation because it doesn't limit itself to benifit the team alone.
It benifits YOU too, weither you are winning or not.
Okay, in Renegade, you could transport your teammembers to the middle of the mountain or whatever. Transporting others may help you win the game, but it doesn't change the fact that you'll be way down in the scoreboard unless you make it into your enemy's base with your chinook and blow up a building or something, but let's be real here, that hardly happens. (in a rational thinking, full server)

Repairing the base however, gives you both benefits (individual and team), so why shouldn't transportation have the same effect?

IF you want to stimulate people to use more chinooks in the game, give them something they can benifit off INDIVIDUALY.
(points, money, a thankyou note on the scoreboard, ect..).


- But you cannot ignore the fact that people DO tend to use the same units in the game. Especialy with Infantry (obviously , because there is allot more diversity in the infantry class than there is with vehicles.)

- I think the main concern is probably how to use the "Rock, Paper, Scissors"- mantra while keeping things Balanced if changes are planned to be made.

- Allot of things are obviously also depending on skill of the players and the type of game you are playing (AOW, Mara)


But in theory, if you have equaly skilled players, and they both take a diffrent class, should one class have a diffrent benifit over the other?

PS: I'm still figuring out the "Rock, Paper, Scissors"- mantra for 'Infantry vs Infantry wise'

Snipers
Splash damage infantry (with lasting effects, close and long range)
Automatic rifles (high speed, and regular)


> Auto rifles >

*Anyone help?

[ace_striker]

One of the problems trying to "fix" anything in Renegade is that it's a slippery slope. You "fix" one thing; why not "fix" something else? And that thing over there everyone complains about (unless they're using it right)? And this thing, I always hated this thing....

So maybe there is a legitimate issue, balance-wise, with the n00bjet. Where does it end?

I thought about it and thought about it, and the responses throughout this thread hold a common theme; everyone complaining that n00bjets are OP are describing situations that stem from a few (or even just one) lone wolves buying them and camping out. Almost everyone saying snipers are easy to deal with are describing team tactics to bring them down. Lone wolves are much more common on public servers; and people tend to think that only a sniper can beat a sniper.

When you've got opportunistic grunts who buy up the n00bjets and harass the other team, the other team can over-react, and their own lone wolves ALL decide to go out and play silly buggers with the first set of n00bjets. Then the remaining opportunistic grunts on the first team see an empty base and rush. GG, go report. The problem isn't really the n00bjets- it's how people react to them and not to their teammates.

(I call them n00bjets, btw, because I myself am a tank driver, and hate snipers with a burning passion. Not that I get killed often by snipers; my K/D on them is quite high, but then I'm always in a tank. I see a sniper, I kill it. If it's in the tunnels, I ignore it and kill their base. GG.)

When Bungie put the Forge into Halo 3, they were worried that once the game came out, people would "fix" their maps. You know, change the placement of items, weapons, start locs, whatever. Eventually they decided maybe that's not such a bad thing. If lots of people want to complain "change this" or "change that", then I support the idea to just include mutators or make the numbers mutable through txt bins. After all, you guys have taken it upon yourselves to, as you've said, translate- not remake- C&C Renegade. If someone else thinks they can "rebalance" the game, that's all fine and well, and they can go about their business without complaining to you ever again. Instead, they can all bitch out each other because 95% of them will be the whiney engineer cowering in a building because a sniper was picking on him.

[TigerXtrm]

Isn't this a luxury problem, really? Don't forget that Renegade is from an era where developers weren't being bitched at for balance issues. I mean how many of us accepted sniping light vehicles as part of the game back then without even complaining? At least in the 5 years I've played Renegade back then I never heard anyone bitch about it ever, not that I recall anyway.

These days everything in a game needs to be perfectly balanced so not to piss off the target audience. 10 to 20 patches a week are put into a game to fix so called balance issues which weren't even that big to begin with.

The sniping of light vehicles is one of those typical Renegade things and, though maybe needs a little bit of tweaking, taking it out would ruin a signature piece of gameplay, IMO.

[Ban4life]

QUOTE (epicelite @ Mar 5 2009, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well what about my preposal?

Orca/Apache
-Machine gun no longer damages tanks(at least not to where it is better then a missile.)
-Snipers do the same damage to orca/apache, but can not damage any other vehicle. (why does a Humvee need to be week to a sniper?)
-Tanny is undamaged by snipers! It is slow and doesn't even have a gun.[/b]

O my... just... no offence but... please stop talking!

Machine gun no longer damages tanks? A med can face any group of chaingunners in the field, if skilled enough. Snipers normal damage to the flying units? no way in hell...

The whole discussion is, like some people already stated, pointless.
let me state that again.

pointless

And somehow I think the message still wont be understood or read, but my argumentation follows:
Yes there is an imbalance between the units the way you look at it. It is like you are thinking this is all a flat map with nothing in it. But everyone is tweaking that map just a little so it suits themselves best.

A laser chaingunner has no chance in hell agains my med. If he is standing a few feet away
Take walls, only one chaingunner is needed to keep one or two meds in a distance if he's on the wall. No one likes to take damage without being able to do lots back. A patch is really good against all infantry. Yes, even snipers. Challange me and die. But ofcourse he's going to die if he's on one side of field and the sniper is on the other. Even the most skilled here cant do anything about that.

Rocket soldiers...
well, sorry, they are just very ineffective. Only the gunner has some fear factor for base rushes and agains infantry for its splash. I'm not the best with the rocket soldiers. Still, they can serve their purpose against tanks and stuff.

SBH's are really good, if you quickly take position and start shooting. A skill only 1 in a million has.

mobius and stuff are even better. Indeed, their only lack of being the ultimate weapon is their range. Its a pretty big beam that comes out, handy if you arent the pin point presicion but still are aiming somewhere near your opponent, doing massive DOT too. (that is Damage Over Time)
Able to melt down vehicles quicker than any other infantry weapon and the advantage of higher mobility than vehicles. (EG, getting on top of something to shoot your ass off)

Then there are the snipers. Over valued in nearly all cases. Their asset is mostly the fear. One shot and you are nearly (or completely) dead. Some think it is a unfair unit. Take field and its hallways. Its packed with the snipers and its really hard to take it back. But whatever. If you fill it with chemsprayers, patches, mobius/mendoza's and the like, I would think a whole lot longer about it. One is a chance you kill a few snipers because of their lack of skill or luck to hit you, the other is taking continues pumeling, while you only get to damage a few other persons who will refill anyways.
Against vehicles. Yes it is effective against the light vehicles. Yes it is effective against the mammy (hehe). No it isnt effective against: light tanks, flamers, medium tanks, mammoth tanks, stanks (though just as much point to gain there as with the mammy), both APC's.
The options of a sniper are really limited. The other units benefit much more of the cover and mobility infantry has to offer.

In conclusion. Most infantry are really good. Balanced. There is one simple fact here. or you are complete nitwits¹ and dont know how to use your characters. or you are just forgetting all about the tactics.
I win 95% of the cases that i would be in a "disadvantage" if I'm allowed to choose my ground.

And mostly, I do.


Ban4life

¹You know of yourself when you arent the nitwit. So dont feel attacked if you are not. If you are uncertain about it or just dont know, then yes, I am talking to you.
Edit: i hit enter and it started posting <.

[Demigan]

I think that snipers will be a great deal less of a problem anyway.

In renegade, the amount of pixels were a lot more limited. Sniping someone's head took about 3 pixels, all you really have to do is aim at one of them and your done. With the low quality screen resolutions, that is ofcourse. So I think that 'sniping' as we know it now in renegade will be completely different anyway. Both because of all the bugs that are taken out, as well as that aiming will be a lot different then it is now.

To compare: when I'm playing the new 'betrayal mode' in UT, then I keep feeling at times that I actually hit that person, while it was actually the tiniest fraction at the side. In renegade it is always clear: you either hit them, or you know sure as hell if you miss.

@Ban4life:

With machine gun he didn't mean the chain gunner or the laser chain gunner, but the chain gun of the orca/apache. Because the apache and orca's rockets are way too useless compared to the machine gun, and that doesn't fit in his opinion.