Les' breakdown the Ramjet

[yosh56]

Screw it, everyone's bringing it up again, so time for a Yosh-post on this annoying subject. Besides, I haven't made a new topic in like almost a week...or day. I dunno.

The Ramjet, noobjet, n00bjet, fagjet, 1k sniper, overpowered gun, skillless weapon...etc etc, is probably the most complained about weapon next to the Flamethrower. At least the Flamethrower is complained about because it's weak though, the Ramjet gets it bad because most think it's too strong. So, let's break it down instead of just making topics whining about particular random aspects we hate about it.

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Let's look at it from a cost-effective ratio in CQC first off.

The Ramjet's rate of fire is about 0.7 seconds, so it is currently less than a second. That'll be important throughout this.

Vs. Free Infantry there's the infamous one-hit-KO. Personally free infantry are "free", but effectiveness wise they are along the lines of a 100 credit unit, maybe more. So for 10x the cost Ramjets one-hit-kill infantry in the chest. PICs also one hit kill to the body for the same price difference. Factor in how many free riflemen a 1k sniper can actually take on simultaneously and win, (which is really about 3 in perfect body-shot conditions) and you come out with them actually being cost-ineffective vs. free infantry, as 4 free(100) soldiers can easily beat a Havoc/Sakura in CQC.

Vs. characters the Ramjet is 2 hits to the body, so all the way up to 1000 credit characters it becomes progressively more cost-effective. 1 vs. 1 trading body-shots, the only weapons that beat the Ramjet are...none actually. If the Ramjet goes for body-shots vs. weapons going for head shots, then the Volt-Rifle, Chaingun, and LCG come out on top.

So in ideal situations the Ramjet isn't that great in CQC due to its fairly slow rate of fire, however there's rarely an ideal situation presented, and that's where numbers start to get a bit crazy.

Ramjets depend A LOT on who's behind the trigger. If the player is able to hit 50% on body shots, they are more than likely unbeatable 1v1 against all infantry.

Assuming they're going for body-shots, and they almost always hit their first shot, then miss the 2nd, they automatically win 1v1 encounters against free infantry without riflemen being able to cause any noticeable damage. Shotguns may be an issue if they get off one very well placed shot. So, at 50% accuracy first-hit luck, Ramjets are unbeatable to free infantry 1v1. So cost wise that makes sense, as a rifleman is 1/10th of a Havoc/Sakura. At 50% accuracy we're looking at 3 riflemen being able to down a Havoc or Sakura, so that'd be along the lines of a 1/3rd cost effective against free infantry in CQC.

Towards characters with the same skill statistics (Always hit 1st shot, 50% accuracy), the a Ramjet is a bit more iffy in its cost-effectiveness. Once more assuming the 1k sniper is all about that body-shot life (as he has more to lose from missing the head than automatic weapons), he can take on Chaingun officers which are 175 credits, at about half the effectiveness of free infantry, as chainguns do almost half of a tier 3 infantry's health with 50% accuracy and a mix of head and body shots before dying in a situation like this. So by the time 50% accuracy Ramjets get enough shots out to kill 1 character class, they will die to any others that are around.

That's fine and dandy, as technically the Officer or McFarland/Chem-troopers have an extreme upper hand cost-wise against Havocs and Sakuras. However, 1v1 they fail to be a decent counter.

For non-single shot weapons, the Volt Auto Rifle and LCG are the only weapons that can beat a 1k sniper with 50% aim in a true CQC battle. With a minor bit of luck(as in the Havoc/Sak missing an extra shot) Patch, Gunner, SBHs and Officers can all come out on top of a Ramjet in close quarters.

Now, let's change this to 50% head shots. Instantly, the Ramjet wins every fight 1v1. It's much harder to find somebody that can do 50% head shots in CQC however, so that is something to take into account. However when it does, Ramjets range in cost effectiveness from .10-1.0. They can render Mobius a waste of 1000 credits just for walking around the wrong corner. On the same token they can hit a free infantry unit, then die to a decent Mobius before they statistically can land another shot.

So final verdict of cost effectiveness vs. infantry in CQC is that it varies and is very situational. Chest-for-chest, the Ramjet wins every fight. At 50% accuracy it wins many fights, but it doesn't come out very cost effective before having to reload. With head shots, it suddenly skyrockets to being at least a 1.0 cost effective rating.

Vs. infantry CQC @ 50% accuracy with the first hit always connecting:

Minimum cost effectiveness is 1/3rd

Maximum cost effectiveness is 1.0

At 100% Accuracy to the head, the Ramjet is capable of fighting off 2 Mobius' before dying to a third. This is thanks to its rate of fire being just fast enough to off 2 Mobius before taking lethal damage.

Vs. infantry CQC @ 100% accuracy to the head

Minimum cost-effectiveness is still 1/3rd

Maximum cost-effectiveness is ~2

Not too terribly bad, but the one hit KO to free infantry anywhere means that it is the ultimate duelling weapon in CQC against them.

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Cost-effectiveness vs. Light Vehicles

This is an iffy subject, as it's hard to know what an 'ideal' situation is with a vehicle. Most ideal for the Ramjet is being as far away as possible, whilst being close up is ideal to vehicles. So I'll go with moderate range and some cover for the sniper.

Ramjets do 60 damage to light armour

Vs. Humvees

1000 vs. 350 credits. Sakura wins this at medium range and with something to pop in and out of. At 60 damage a hit, it takes a Sakura exactly 4 shots and a reload to kill a Humvee. That comes out to about 7 seconds for this kill to occur. In those 7 seconds, it is possible for the Humvee to close the gap and take away the cover advantage, but if the Sakura plays ring around the Rosie that becomes a moot point. More than 1 on the field easily spells death to a sniper however, unless they're on high ground inaccessible to vehicles, in which case that's just tactical advantage.

That is just barely over 1/3rd cost effectiveness however, so not too spectacular.

Vs. Buggies

1000 vs. 300 credits. Havoc obviously wins this just the same. Surprisingly these come out to the same stats as the Humvee, all because of the buggy being left with 10 health after 4 shots. More than 1 on the field easily spells death to a sniper however, unless they're on high ground inaccessible to vehicles, in which case that's just tactical advantage.

Vs. Artillery/MRLS

These are generally the go to weapon for taking down Artillery. At 1000 vs. 450 credits, Havocs do come out on top by only needing 4 shots, a reload, and 3 more shots to kill. However in the span of the almost 9 seconds it takes a Havoc to take down an Artillery, it has more than enough time to run and get repaired. Still 1v1 this is in the Havoc's favour so long as he isn't ridiculously close. The Artillery can however splash damage around most cover, meaning that more than 1 firing back at a sniper is likely too much to handle.

That's about 1/2 cost effectiveness.

Vs. Orcas/Apaches

1000 vs. 900 credits, this sparks almost as many debates as the one-shot to free infantry. It takes 7 shots once more to take down an aircraft after their health buff, so that's 9 seconds they have to run or attack once they start taking damage. If the sniper isn't too far away the aircraft can also negate their cover with their uncanny ability to fly.

If 1 Havoc can take on an aircraft, it comes out almost as cost effective against Aircraft as it does against infantry in normal situations.

So vs. aircraft it has 9/10 cost effective ratio.

So overall against light vehicles, the Ramjet comes out 'okay' but not nearly close to anything overpowered. They make great support units against light armour, but unless they come in mass they are not the end all be all to all things light. And if they are in mass...just use heavy armour. Ramjets do virtually nothing to heavy armour.

At moderate range with some basic form of cover:

Minimum cost effectiveness is 1/3rd

Maximum cost effectiveness is 9/10

So realistically they are 'good' not great against light armour. At no point can they 1v1 any light vehicle without some tactical advantage and come out on top.

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The Ramjet as an actual sniper rifle is a bit harder to judge. On one hand, the one-hitKO on free infantry is annoying and frustrating for anyone who is on it's receiving end, on the other hand, we have a 1000 credit sniper rifle that needs to be better than its 500 credit counterpart. Exactly how much better is debatable. Comparing the 500 and 1000 side by side, I think they may be a bit too disproportionate for their own good.

500 sniper takes :

2 body shots to kill free infantry

3 body shots to kill tier 1-2 infantry

4 shots to kill tier 3 infantry

That seems pretty fair and balanced, as it becomes progressively more difficult to get away with body-shots as players go up in tier. Now look at the Ramjet.

1k sniper takes :

1 shot to kill free infantry

2 shots for tier 1, 2, and 3 infantry

The Ramjet more or less scraps the entire idea of progression and just sits proudly on top of its podium as a monument to its own brazen ability to just be incredible...maybe too incredible.

Now let's factor in that the Ramjet and the 500 sniper have roughly the same rate of fire AND reload speed, and it starts to become obvious why the Ramjet feels overpowered. As this is mostly an analysis, I'm not trying to make too many suggestions, but I do think that at the very least the Ramjet's rate of fire should be over 1 second, and not beneath. Whether that is taken into account or not, another change that may make it seem more proportional with the 500 is decreasing its damage by 50.

At 150 damage to the body the Ramjet would now be:

2 shots to free, tier 1 and tier 2 infantry

3 shots to tier 3 infantry.

This, coupled with raising the rate of fire to just over a second, would allow Mobius to TRULY hard-counter 1k's in CQC unless the 1k was actually skilled with head shots. It would also allow other infantry to have a better chance vs. those who rely entirely on spamming body shots, even though they aren't exactly marksmen.

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As for balance of 1k snipers vs. the other 2 tier 3 infantry, I'd have to say 1k's do encroach on PICs territory slightly. On that same note however PICs encroach right back on Ramjet territory with the ability to one shot free infantry. That is an ability that could stay with them however, as PICs have a pretty hefty reload time.

It is concerning that PICs have less damage against Light vehicles than 1k snipers however. Considering PICs don't have the range of a Havoc/Sakura, you would think that they'd be more damaging against light vehicles, especially considering PICs are supposed to be field-control type infantry. Don't get me wrong, a small group of them is phenomenal, but the difference in the amount a Ramjet can output vs. Artillery vs. a PIC is a bit disturbing.

Where it takes a Ramjet 7 shots over the course of just under 9 seconds to kill an Artillery, it takes a PIC 5 shots that take just over 12 seconds to get out with reloads. I already ranted about how light armour shouldn't take the same damage as heavy armour vs. anti-vehicle weapons, and this is one of those instances where it really starts breaking some expected game-mechanics.

If the PIC just did 100 damage to light instead of its current all around 85, it could at least kill off an Artillery as fast as a Havoc. If that occurred, it may not be so implausible to have Havoc's ROF decreased, as we'd still have an infantry able to do what Havoc was always able to do, just not with as much range.

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I'm sure I'll think of more in the coming days, but for now that's the rough breakdown of everybody's favourite weapon to love and/or hate.

[A-Rodge]

Vs Free:

Frustrating as hell. Like, i know its a free class but that does not take into account the time investment for some of the larger maps; just running across the field to actually accomplish something then get one hit body shot and you're back to base.

Vs Tiers 123

It's still pretty good. The rate of fire coupled with a competent body shotter levels you in under 2 seconds. 3-4 if you're good at dodging.

Vs Light Armor

it's fine against MRLs and Artillery [moreso artillery] because they have a long ranged suppression mechanic and can trade blows pretty well with a pesky ramjet. Good economy for it too like you mentioned 1000 cred vs 450 cred.

Vs Orcas and Apaches

im pretty torn on this one. I know its hard for flying units to close the distance and their missiles are short range, but then again, you have NOD who is lacking a legitimate anti-air vehicle. Dont mention Stanks, their range is abominable and cannot 1v1 an orca.

Solution:

Firing ramjet from the hip needs to go. When snipers are sniping they need to be in a slower, vulnerable, and scoped state so close range units can get the jump on them. They should be forced to switch to secondary when going toe to toe with other infantry.

Also, a slight increase to firing speed would do some good.

[RoundShades]

I would rather ramjets be single shot bolt action and pic/rail keeping their 4 round clip, given ramjets can reach mapwide and pic can reach medium range.

I would also like to see a volt buff. Give it it's secondary effect as primary, with a really tight shot group 2 infantry shoulderlengths wide at max range, which btw max range should be increased slightly and rate of fire should be increased slightly. What about the secondary? Holographic sight like PIC/Rail. Now, of course, max damage should come from 1 beam contact, multiple beams should do same damage at 1. This basically just make it an autorifle that can aim with some deviation and still hit. ITS A 1k AUTORIFLE, it should be able to hit with wide spread deviation for fairly sure damage and rapidly build up damage on infantry and heavy armor, considering both it's siblings knock you flat on your arse in the first hit.

Anyway, that should balance the ramjet, doing less overall damage per second to light vehicles but doing large chunky damage, and hitting infantry with longer delay between. You can still use a PIC, or idk possibly snipe with them across map derp. It also gives the 500 sniper a different role much like marksman does.

While we are at it, buff the flak splash range of mcfarland while keeping the damage down to 20 per shot, so you can splash snipers around corners but not do critical damage killing 7 enemies in less than a clip like pre-nerf.

[Canucck]

The Ramjet's rate of fire is about 0.7 seconds, so it is currently less than a second. That'll be important throughout this.

Also, a slight increase to firing speed would do some good.

Neither sniper can fire at max RoF atm because of the no-fire bug. It's more noticeable on single shot weapons but it still happens with autos between reloads too. Fix that before even thinking about changes to RoF.

The rest of the comments here seem to want the game slowed down to battlefield pace and the ability to groundpound everything instead of aiming... the RenX changes already slowed the game down too much, ren is supposed to be an arcade shooter.

The only thing that ever needed to be changed about the ramjet was to make it deal 175-190dmg to infantry instead of 200. The only thing that changes is no 1shots on free inf, so at long range it's not as much of a joke and at close range switching to pistol becomes more efficient in 90% of situations. TTK on the other tiers would stay the same down to 175dmg/shot.

[yosh56]

How on Earth has RenX slowed down Renegade at all. Head shots and body shots now actually do significant damage, and between added sprinting and Airstrikes RenX is definitely faster. Have you played OldRen lately? It is significantly more sluggish feeling.

Also, the no-fire bug is hit-or-miss; I notice it sometimes, but often you can get away without it ever happening. When everything works as according the Ramjet does actually shoot pretty damn fast.

Nobody sounds at all like they want to slow the game down much at all. Snipers are, and always have been, sitting on the overpowered side of the spectrum. Yeah they're an aim/skill class, but body-shotting with the ramjet takes about the average aim of a COD player. Watch anyone half-decent with a Ramjet. If you can twitch, you can win any fight at any range, ever.

Trust me, I'm not saying this because I hate snipers. Hell, I don't even zoom in for long range shots half of the time, as all i do is shoot for the top of the dot I'm aiming at in the distance. I won't agree immediately with taking away hip-fire, as any one-shot gun with random spread doesn't fit anything about Ren, but snipers are/were broken in Ren. Tunnel wars basically become 'that guy who's good with this one gun'. If you can headshot consistently, great, I already mentioned the 500 being pretty well balanced for what it does, and it follows a logical progression for body shots while giving full reward if you can hit someone in the face.

The Ramjet kind of just...gives you kills so long as you can put your crosshairs in someone's general direction. It follows no real progression like the 500 sniper. It's just 1 shot free infantry, 2 for everyone else, and beats automatics while firing at centre of mass.

Trust me, killing the ROF on the Ramjet just a hair won't slow the game down. If anything it'll speed it up, as that one person just picking off CQC infantry in CQC will no longer be hampering everything by himself. Half of Renegae's mechanics are about not giving one player ungodly amounts of power. Snipers have always sort of broken that mould, right behind Technicians.

I say this as one who basically grabs a Havoc with the sole purpose of being annoying in the tunnels when I know my aim is on point.

[Canucck]

How on Earth has RenX slowed down Renegade at all. Head shots and body shots now actually do significant damage, and between added sprinting and Airstrikes RenX is definitely faster. Have you played OldRen lately? It is significantly more sluggish feeling.

Airstrikes slow the game down, they are cheap spammable massive AoE abilities that are very hard to push into. Scoped movement on all weapons has a slow, in renegade the zoom had no penalty. There is a movement penalty after jumping. New maps have either no or limited/useless tunnels, tunnels helped a lot with breaking stale situations in ren. I could be imagining this one but it feels like AoE either has a larger radius or the damage doesn't drop off as fast within the radius. AoE slows the shit out of everything gameplay-wise.

Also, the no-fire bug is hit-or-miss; I notice it sometimes, but often you can get away without it ever happening. When everything works as according the Ramjet does actually shoot pretty damn fast.

It's not hit or miss, it will happen every time you try to fire the instant your weapon is finished reloading. Buy an SBH+carbine, reload while invis, then try to fire immediately as it finishes. You will lose ammo and stay invisible because you aren't actually shooting anything. This is the no-fire bug, it's completely different from noregs incase you were getting it confused with that.

the rest

I wasn't really talking about your analysis post at all other than the part I quoted. Ramjet 1shots on free inf were one of the biggest problems with game pacing in the original too.

[RoundShades]

Here is just another submission. The ramjet does 2 500 sniper bullets of damage in one dose. If it shot 1/4 slower, not even a whole half but a quarter slower, then it would be nice.

[yosh56]

Airstrikes slow the game down, they are cheap spammable massive AoE abilities that are very hard to push into. Scoped movement on all weapons has a slow, in renegade the zoom had no penalty. There is a movement penalty after jumping. New maps have either no or limited/useless tunnels, tunnels helped a lot with breaking stale situations in ren. I could be imagining this one but it feels like AoE either has a larger radius or the damage doesn't drop off as fast within the radius. AoE slows the shit out of everything gameplay-wise.

Considering Airstrikes are also used to surpress engineers repairing vehicles, Airstrikes also help break vehicle-camping stalemates. They aren't THAT cheap, and honestly they do just enough damage to vehicles now to be considered a support weapon, not to mention they give snipers something to shoot at.

Having a movement penalty in scope: I remember there being one in OldRen, but then again I never used the scope, just like I rarely bother with it in X. I do t think it having a movement penalty is all that big of a deal though. You don't slow an entire game down by having something optional slow movement, it just gave scoping a very simplistic advantage vs. disadvantage.

If you sprint and jump at the same time the jump penalty isn't really that big of a deal. If anything jumping made you easier to hit in OldRen anyway, especially by snipers.

The one thing I agree with is that AOE got way too much of a buff on tanks and it feels like remote C4 as well. And yes, it got buffed for some god awful reason in beta 3, as if killing infantry in tanks wasn't already easy enough. Next we'll get directional armour...then double tank damage to infantry...

Newer maps aren't all done however, and Goldrush doesn't have tunnels because it has an entire field dedicated to infantry. XMountain is one I noticed that could use tunnels, or a more intricate infantry path. Whiteout just isn't a finished map, and I'm not sure why it's in game in its unfinished state.

I'd still overall after playing OldRen beside X, X definitely feels faster paced, and not just from sprinting. Tunnel fights between non-snipers don't seem to drag on as it isn't a complete waste of a bullet to accidentally hit someone in the chest, and it never feels like someone is completely in-hittable (e.g snipers vibrating in OldRen).

The only thing I really see that slowed X down is the addition of EMP nades. Rushing was hard enough, so what logic was there to make it harder? At least adding Airstrikes helps break sieges (albeit completely imbalanced in its initial incarnation). I feel like current mechanics aren't considered well enough before some changes get made.

Here is just another submission. The ramjet does 2 500 sniper bullets of damage in one dose. If it shot 1/4 slower, not even a whole half but a quarter slower, then it would be nice.

The Ramjet already kind of suffers from the 'doubling' mechanic in Renegade that applies some places but not others. For instance, the Adv. Repair gun is DOUBLE the normal one. It could have very well been a 50% increase and still been worth it without being as partially game-breaking as it is. It's not too bad, but it does seem like a bit of an undeserved jump.

The Ramjet could also have been a 50% increase and still been a 'better' sniper rifle made for those who can't headshot worth a damn.

[RoundShades]

Here is just another submission. The ramjet does 2 500 sniper bullets of damage in one dose. If it shot 1/4 slower, not even a whole half but a quarter slower, then it would be nice.

The Ramjet already kind of suffers from the 'doubling' mechanic in Renegade that applies some places but not others. For instance, the Adv. Repair gun is DOUBLE the normal one. It could have very well been a 50% increase and still been worth it without being as partially game-breaking as it is. It's not too bad, but it does seem like a bit of an undeserved jump.

The Ramjet could also have been a 50% increase and still been a 'better' sniper rifle made for those who can't headshot worth a damn.

Lol, it could do 500 sniper damage, with 5 rounds per clip and the old renegade's fire rate (no lengthy action between shots)

Then at least situationally it wouldn't be a 1 hit kill.

But changing clip size to 1 and leaving damage, makes it much more legacy, than reducing damage, even a little bit so it doesn't 1 hit kill free infantry.

But we are left torn between big changes away from old renegade, and excellent balance. Because a ramjet being a 500 with extra ammo and 0.2 more fire rate a second would be excellent balance.

[GatsuFox]

IMO the damage should be:

80 damage for chest -> 250 for head for the 500 class silenced sniper rifle.

160 damage for chest -> 400 for head for the 1000 class ramjet rifle.

There is NO reason why the 500 sniper should be able to gib techs/hotties/t2+ with a single HS, it should require 2 shots ATLEAST.

This huge nerf needs to be counter acted with ammo drops or some sort of refill mechanic on the field. Refer here to what I'm talking about: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74068

Or possibly even upping their ammo count.

Leave light armor damage the same.

[RoundShades]

IMO the damage should be:

80 damage for chest -> 250 for head for the 500 class silenced sniper rifle.

160 damage for chest -> 400 for head for the 1000 class ramjet rifle.

There is NO reason why the 500 sniper should be able to gib techs/hotties/t2+ with a single HS, it should require 2 shots ATLEAST.

This huge nerf needs to be counter acted with ammo drops or some sort of refill mechanic on the field. Refer here to what I'm talking about: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=74068

Or possibly even upping their ammo count.

Leave light armor damage the same.

This would completely change sniping from legacy. I would entirely agree on it nonetheless. My thoughts on this:

-Sniper rifle animations could be faster and pretty much go back to old renegade rate of fire, to make up for such a nerf in straight up damage.

-It would be nice if all primaries gained 1-2 extra clips across all primaries. Infantry refill is pretty painful for snipers especially, but really all other classes that drink through 1 clip in a single use.

-It would be nice if an "item" was an ammo refill. Literally, item called "ammo box", and when used you get beacon plant filling-bar and a new animation of prying open an ammo box, takes half as long as beacon plant and upon finishing all weapons return to full ammo.

-If Items were all merged with existing beacons and airstrike, would mean they couldn't overlap. Also means engineers could even refill remotes, but would lose their timed. This would still not be a 1 hit for a structure, correct?

Cool ideas FTW!