Megakoresh Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) I managed to get our grand and glorious clan interested in this little gem of a game, just as we are changing focus and reformatting the clan for a new primary game, and yesterday we did a "Get to know" event for this game. We played quite a lot, almost 6 hours straight (not all and with some breaks, but still). I have been playing this game since it came out and since it's rings quite a few bells for me, I have assimilated rather well to it. I have been to many betas before and I am studying game design (focusing on gameplay/combat design) professionally, so I think after yesterday's extensive run, I have enough experience in this game give a reasonably extensive feedback from the "average gamer standpoint". This will be long, sorry, can't help myself. Please do NOT treat this feedback in regards to the "original Renegade" and whatnot. I am talking ONLY based on gameplay and will try to provide suggestions based on that without any bias towards the original (which I played so long ago I don't even remember much of how it was to begin with) or anything else. And because some people will think something which I rather not mention: I am Tribes and Quake veteran, played a lot of those games. I also played a fair bit of Nuclear Dawn and a little Natural Selection 2. I really dislike MMS with their grindy progression models and while I do not despise BF as much as I do CoD, I still can't find it fun for long. Also ALL people in our clan are hardcore gamers. None of them can be called "casuals" from any perspective. So from that standpoint, they are definitely the audience to aim for. Note that I focus on critical things in feedback. If it works fine, why write about it? I love this game, but praising it won't help to improve it, so I will write about it's problems, not what works well, like scale or variety of classes or graphics. Let's go! Gameplay Most in my clan complained HEAVILY about gun feedback. Being a veteran of Quake, I do not have as big a problem with it, but I see where my friends are coming from and I see how it can deter a larger audience. Let me explain: Gun's recoil/damage model is not balanced for feedback. In simple terms it just means: not enough recoil AND damage. In order for them to feel weighty they need to kick the enemy as much they kick the aim. That is when I shoot GDI gunner's bazooka it should kick like a horse, because it deals 50% of HP in one hit. Similarly weapons such as soldiers LMG should have around 50% greater muzzle climb AND 50% greater damage. The main point of recoil is that it allows you to have a very powerful weapon that kills fast, but takes more skill to control. Thus you compensate for that damage by making it so that projectiles are not easy to land on the target. The gun that i personally find the best in terms of recoil-damage ratio (although could certainly use more recoil) is Raveshaw's gun. That one hits like a truck, but kicks too. Suggestion? Buff damage across the board for most weapons and buff recoil just as much. Recoil should go hand in hand with damage. Better yet? Make varying recoil patterns. I know UDK allows for example these recoil X and Y axis biases. Vary those up for different weapons. Make it a skill to learn any weapons and make a skillful soldier always beat a not skillful Laser gunner just because one lands all hits to the head and another has trouble landing his hits at all. Look at how CS does it for example. Why is this important you may ask? Quake didn't need recoil... Painkiller didn't need it... Tribes doesn't have much of it either. Well you know what those games do have? Speed. When you fly around at 300kph or jump around like a maniac to gain momentum or fly around on jump pads, you do not have time for recoil, it's just annoying. But when combat is focused in choke points, when you stand beside a tank and are trying to lay suppressing fire on the engineers across the field, recoil WITH the proper damage DOES matter a lot. You need to feel that you are really putting effort into every burst, every shot. And THEY need to FEAR your bullets, they need to know that if you are good and you manage to hit, then it will HURT. As it stands the only bullet I fear and take cover from is Sakura's or GDI Sniper's oneHK bodyshots (which need a nerf, 1HK bodyshots are just BS). [*]That's not all about the guns. In addition to dealing low damage and having low recoil thus fighting condensing to the weird strafing around at low speeds, the gun's iron sights are practically useless. Unless you are playing as a sniper, there's literally no point trying to aim down sights: it slows you down and makes it impossible to dodge bullets, while not giving you any noticeable accuracy advantage. [*]Aiming down sights, coupled with proper recoil should reduce recoil on the weapon by around 30-50% depending on the weapon and reduce spread by 50-100% depending on the weapon. That is a real tradeoff to standing still. [*]Also try to match recoil with the gun's fire animations. Look at Patch. Aim down sights and fire. Warning: motion sickness might ensue. [*]Hit feedback is also a problem: When you are being hit, it the indicator should be more noticeable. I would reduce it's size, but make it brighter. Make the camera bob a liiitle bit down when you are hit by a bullet. Just a little bit. No screenshake. Just a smooth bob. You studied animation? Know about easing? Use a curve like this. You'd be surprised how big an effect it would have. When you hit someone there should an audio confirmation that is loud and satisfying. The BEST audio hit confirmation sound I have ever heard in games is probably in Tribes Ascend. I dunno how difficult it would be, but can we have a selection of sounds for kills? I don't mind boink, but some of my friends are disturbed by it. [*]Vehicles are for the most part quite nice, but I am not keen on the "passenger" role. [*]Let the passenger do something. In transport helis I can shoot stuff. Why can't I shoot the LMG on APCs or tanks? The driver already has driving to worry about. Let passengers worry about shooting people. Otherwise sitting there chewing tiberium sandwiches is boring. And unhealthy. Balance Ohoho there's quite a few problems there... ENGINEERS This one is just insane. The more I play the more I am shocked by how EVERYTHING is done by engineers. Just REMOVE them. Remove engineers, techs, hotwires. Give ALL classes a repair tool. Make advanced repair tool a purchasable weapon upgrade. And make it so repair tools can't heal players. Instead add a "Support" class, to also solve another problem with balance/convenience in this game: Support class should be able to heal players. Support class should have resupply crates. This is a big issue in the game now, when you run out of ammo, you have to go back to the base or suicide. And unless you are carrying an item, you bought, of course you will just suicide. That is quite silly. Adding a class that would be able to resupply players in the field adds tactical depth to the game and allows pressured, tense fights to last longer. The Support class should have around 3 supply crates. One supply crate should be usable by 2 separate players (excluding Support class, which should just have unlimited ammo and no C4/grenades). [*]MINES! Indestructible mines that take like 10 seconds EACH to disarm using a repair gun mean you can basically permanently wall off a tunnel or an area from both sides. This is just silly. Mines should be tricky to SEE, not get rid of. Instead of making them indestructible, make them explode if shot and to balance out, make them not pop up on the visors when looked at. Give them a more neutral texture too. Make it a skill to place mines where they are less likely to be spotted, but more likely to be stepped on, like top of the hills or in shadows, around corners, etc. [*]Maps with obelisks/AGTs should not also have turrets in them, that's just too much. [*]PLEASE balance maps like Fields to give both teams a fair defence structure coverage. In the fields it's pretty much impossible to get to the NOD structures without getting fried by the obelisk, whereas you can easily without any harm both sneak in the back and blow up GDI refinery with a beacon without getting hit by the AGT at all AND you can easily just change in along the wall in the buggy straight to the AGT thanks to the huge opening and plant a C4/beacon in the tower. Very unbalanced map. So far it's the most unbalanced map. [*]Flame tanks should not do so much damage to buildings. They are supposed to be able to clear out fields from infantry and vehicles, and protect friendly NOD units, not be the most effective siege weapon in the game. That's what NOD artillery is for. [*]Please make some variations in movement speed for classes. Why is a shotgunner or flamethrower soldier moving at the same speed as a Heavy gunner or a Rocket soldier? They should move faster. [*]Flying vehicles don't seem to do much most rockets have lock on and there are no flairs. Dogfighting is effectively non-existent and I just don't see a reason to buy a helicopter aside for transportation purposes. Not to mention that most maps don't even allow flying vehicles (more on that in the last section). [*]Like I posted here, I think Refinery is not in a very good spot right now. Whenever Refinery or the Harvester+Vehicle structure get destroyed, the game becomes incredibly dull. [*]I am of the opinion that instead passive credit gain should always be the same and increase towards the end of the game (at the end people should never worry about money, to reduce match dragging out), and Refineries+Harvesters be responsible for getting additional resource required to buy advanced vehicles like Mammoths, Stealth tanks or Flame tanks and well as possible some infantry classes. Convenience/Usability/User Experience Please allow us to respawn with a selected class. So If I select flamer class, and die, I will respawn with the flamer class. Please allow purchase menu on death, so I can immediately spawn with desired loadout. Please let us rebind keys/change settings from within the match without usage of consoles. I dunno if it's possible, but if you can please allow joining through steam and adding servers to favourites. Please let us view server info for the server we are currently on. The invisible walls everywhere are just terrible. On some maps where I can clearly fit a small vehicle in some place, it wouldnt let me do that because there's a wall. The helicopter ceiling is super-low as well. In Islands I can't go into water and swim around. It's a GIANT bummer for me. "Out of bounds, respawn in..." type of soft boundaries is MUCH better. Please do something about these invisible walls. Half the time they should not even be there. Give players more room. Voice chat? Let us rebind voice command activation. For me it is physically impossible to press for example ctrl+v+8 with one hand. I would like to rebind all of these activator buttons and possibly change the method of activation from hold to toggle. Make radar more useful Make enemies and friendlies pop up on it and flash when they move or fire. Radar should be a tactical tool, but it's very bleak and inconvenient to use ATM. Well that is it for now. The game is great, we'll definitely be playing it, keep up the good work. I probably forgot something, but I will then add it later... Edited March 21, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega79 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I did not go through all but ... this is Command and Conquer, Engineers are essential for Command and Conquer, it is just not possible to remove Engineers And the way they work ist just perfect and fits very well into the universe. As for mines, with a Hotwire/Technichan you can defuse very quick, same with 2 Engies .. and if there less than 4 you do not even have to disarm ... I understand you probably not come from Command and Conquer, but this game is very close tied to this universe and gamemechanics ... even if they did change the game slightly compared to the original the general look and feel of Command and Conquer Renegade and other Command and Conquer games is intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakoresh Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 I understand you probably not come from Command and Conquer, but this game is very close tied to this universe and gamemechanics ... even if they did change the game slightly compared to the original the general look and feel of Command and Conquer Renegade and other Command and Conquer games is intended In that case the original game mechanics are simply bad. Bad mechanics should not be copied. When the only way to disarm a minefield is to either suicide rush it or babysit it with techs for 10 full minutes (!!!) that objectively can not be good. And right, some servers set limit for how many mines are allowed, but a mine, by it's very definition, can not be indestructible. If engineers are so essential and can't be removed, why not remove all the other classes then? The 8 of us in the clan just spawned as tech/hotwire classes and were able to do everything objective-wise better than everyone else, as well as defend ourselves easily with mines and remote C4, combined with tiberium rifle or heavy pistol. At no point, did I feel like I would do more good as any other class. The sole motivation to switch was out of boredom. This one class can do everything: capture, defend, repair, heal, disarm and destroy and due to the way this game is paced, defend themselves well too. When someone plants a beacon and there are no engineers nearby, there's no point to even try to find and disarm it. While you are switching it will be past it's threshhold, you won't be able to get to it in time. So if you are defending why would risk and take a different class? While at the front lines, when you have a bunch of vehicles sieging the enemy, every vehicle costs a bunch of money, so why would you switch a different class (and pay more for it too), if you can repair the vehicle as an engineer? While in the chokepoints, when preventing enemy from infiltrating, why would risk babysitting the choke point, with some class when you can just throw a bunch of mines, knowing it will take them at least half a minute to disarm your 3 mines and ONLY if they are lucky to have an engineer with them? Alternatively why would take someone else to recon an area, if you know that only engineers can go through a minefield intact? Why? No reason. So I never felt a reason, besides wanting variety, to play other classes. Especially if you are good with secondary weapons, which are really just as good as other class's primaries, just a bit more difficult to use. The vibe of this original game consists of the base defence/attack objective, combined arms, cool vehicles, superweapons, base structures being tied to resources and multiple separated routes on the maps. I can not see how requiring every player to be an engineer in order to play the objective carries any sort of vibe. Maybe removal is a solution that is too extreme (I was thinking in terms of what's easier to do), but spreading the class's responsibilities across multiple players/classes is certainly going to significantly improve the game. And definitely won't destroy the feel of the original Renegade, because it simply can't, it's just a balance improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega79 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 wait for the patch man ... if you lose your sidearms every time you die a engineer can not defende himself anymore sidearms make em too powerfull ... i am not a friend of sidearms that are available without a techbuilding and a good team can very easy handle 8 engineers rushing in ... but in fact, angi rush was always a tactic ... you shall learn to handle such instead of suggestiing a massive gameplay change ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocux Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hey! I agree with most of your feedback. You said some very important stuff that could improve the gameplay experience very much. However, here's what I don't agree with: ENGINEERS This one is just insane. The more I play the more I am shocked by how EVERYTHING is done by engineers. Just REMOVE them. Remove engineers, techs, hotwires. Give ALL classes a repair tool. Make advanced repair tool a purchasable weapon upgrade. And make it so repair tools can't heal players. Instead add a "Support" class, to also solve another problem with balance/convenience in this game: Support class should be able to heal players. Support class should have resupply crates. This is a big issue in the game now, when you run out of ammo, you have to go back to the base or suicide. And unless you are carrying an item, you bought, of course you will just suicide. That is quite silly. Adding a class that would be able to resupply players in the field adds tactical depth to the game and allows pressured, tense fights to last longer. The Support class should have around 3 supply crates. One supply crate should be usable by 2 separate players (excluding Support class, which should just have unlimited ammo and no C4/grenades). MINES! Indestructible mines that take like 10 seconds EACH to disarm using a repair gun mean you can basically permanently wall off a tunnel or an area from both sides. This is just silly. Mines should be tricky to SEE, not get rid of. Instead of making them indestructible, make them explode if shot and to balance out, make them not pop up on the visors when looked at. Give them a more neutral texture too. Make it a skill to place mines where they are less likely to be spotted, but more likely to be stepped on, like top of the hills or in shadows, around corners, etc. I agree with omega79, Engineers are essential to the Renegade game concept. However, there was a huge difference to the Engineers in the old Renegade: There was no such thing as upgrading your sidearm. Engineers had only the silenced pistol to defend themselves against infantry and vehicles, making them very very very very weak in combat. Now with the tiberium auto rifle it's just insane. Especially since you buy it once and keep it forever, even after map change. And it's ridiculously overpowered for the price (I think it's 450$ or so), so either make the rifle weaker or more expensive, and very important: Make players buy them again after they die, just like any other class. This should fix most of the Engineer balance problem. I'm really against removing that class. Giving every class a repair gun would simply make mines and beacons useless, because what's the point in even using them, when just anyone can disarm them? It would also take away some depth, since you need to organize your team by bringing Engineers into the combat to repair tanks. Repairing, healing and disarming should not be an ability that every class has. However, I agree on the mines issue. It should be very easy for engineers to disarm them, and harder for players to see them. Flame tanks should not do so much damage to buildings. They are supposed to be able to clear out fields from infantry and vehicles, and protect friendly NOD units, not be the most effective siege weapon in the game. That's what NOD artillery is for. Flame tanks have always been anti-building in Renegade (and in almost every other C&C-Game). The trick is to keep them away from your base and destroy them before they can enter, since they have only a very short weapon range. However, spotting vehicles and enemies should be improved by using the radar system and minimap, you also said that, but I'll get to that. Like I posted here, I think Refinery is not in a very good spot right now. Whenever Refinery or the Harvester+Vehicle structure get destroyed, the game becomes incredibly dull.I am of the opinion that instead passive credit gain should always be the same and increase towards the end of the game (at the end people should never worry about money, to reduce match dragging out), and Refineries+Harvesters be responsible for getting additional resource required to buy advanced vehicles like Mammoths, Stealth tanks or Flame tanks and well as possible some infantry classes. Having a constant passive credit gain would make having a Refinery quite pointless. Like every other structure... every Building has its own purpose and losing it should be a big loss for the team. Maybe scoring points by killing and damaging enemies should be more profitable to prevent the game from getting dull after the refinery has been destroyed. Let us rebind voice command activation. For me it is physically impossible to press for example ctrl+v+8 with one hand. I would like to rebind all of these activator buttons and possibly change the method of activation from hold to toggle.Make radar more useful Make enemies and friendlies pop up on it and flash when they move or fire. Radar should be a tactical tool, but it's very bleak and inconvenient to use ATM. I agree. Maybe spotting a vehicle (with Q) should make the vehicle light up, or get some kind of arrow or causing it to light up on the radar (for every team member of course)... you should do everything possible to improve communication between team members, as this is the key for the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega79 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Yes, the problem are sidearms not the class ... i think sidearms need more balancing ... maybe no sidearms without a techbuilding and slightly more expensive ... ofcourse the bug that let you keep sidearms after you die will be removed (already confirmed) engineers should not be allowed to carry grenades imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakoresh Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 Yes, the problem are sidearms not the class ...i think sidearms need more balancing ... maybe no sidearms without a techbuilding and slightly more expensive ... ofcourse the bug that let you keep sidearms after you die will be removed (already confirmed) engineers should not be allowed to carry grenades imo So you suggest removing variety and nerfing guns that are otherwise perfectly balanced for the sake of making one class useless in combat, such that people are forced to equip other classes if they want to fight, but must somehow always convince someone on the server to follow them around while doing nothing but aiming one gun at various objects and hoping that other person you are following around can protect you from the dangers of the galaxy? Riiight... Somehow I don't see that working out. I think another thing about engineers is how boring they are to play, just like anything that is forced on the player. Engineers are definitely forced, and as I said, if it was like that in the original Renegade, that just means it was also not very well balanced. As I said, maybe removing them is too extreme, but disarming mines, capturing buildings and disarming beacons should be tasks that any character can do. Maybe engineers can be made to do it better. But not the ONLY ones to perform these tasks. And healing players should also, IMO, be other class's job. I get what you two are trying to say. But do not view Renegade as the "perfect" game, there's nothing perfect in this world. If Engineers were like that in the old game, that just means it was also flawed. Flaws should be improved. As for the sidearms being equipped on death, I like that. I wasn't aware it was not consuming money, but I like the idea of not having to manually rebuy the same thing every time I spawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega79 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 those sidearms ar far from balanced! they are to cheap and overpowered! the classes are good balanced just need a little tweak ... I just feel you not like the gameplay as it is suggesting any character should carry a defusegun is just plain rediculus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocux Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 So you suggest removing variety and nerfing guns that are otherwise perfectly balanced for the sake of making one class useless in combat, such that people are forced to equip other classes if they want to fight, but must somehow always convince someone on the server to follow them around while doing nothing but aiming one gun at various objects and hoping that other person you are following around can protect you from the dangers of the galaxy? Riiight... Somehow I don't see that working out. We've might have had a different game experience, but most of the time this actually is working out. I see a lot of engineers supporting tanks on the battlefield, sometimes tank drivers that are engineers stay on the field to repair their mates after their vehicle was destroyed. I get what you two are trying to say. But do not view Renegade as the "perfect" game, there's nothing perfect in this world. If Engineers were like that in the old game, that just means it was also flawed. Flaws should be improved. Of course renegade wasn't a perfect game. But - the game system was very different from other games. The building-related combat system is very unique, and if we give everyone the ability to repair buildings, it wouldn't be much of an effort to repair buildings and to defend your base. Players should go to some trouble to defend their base from attacks and beacons, and if that challenge of building- and base-related combat is taken away, we could just play any other game, because that's what makes renegade stand out. However, we just have different opinions and discussing them won't get us anywhere. The devs need to decide which way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iovandrake Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Going to comment on a few things. Doesn't mean I disagree with what isn't mentioned or that I agree with it either. Just don't feel like commenting on those aspects at this time. Mines ------- Mines aren't hard to disarm really. I've managed to disarm several mines and slip into a base many many many times. You just can't do that if the other team is doing well to defend and you shouldn't be able to constantly solo a base. You should be required to bring support. If you are going to attack a base you should have others helping you (not saying it's always possible, but it should be a desirable requirement). People need to stop treating this game like every class should be a one man army able to do anything that is required. Mines shouldn't be identified by aiming at them. I agree with this. I do not agree with being able to destroy mines with your weapons though. That completely ruins their purpose in this game and I would SBH nuke or Hottie/Techie you to death all the time if that were possible. Mines should take some time to disarm in order for defenders to have a fair chance to get their value out of them. If they aren't doing damage to a unit they need to at least be delaying them. Engineers ------------ I do not agree with you on engineers at all. This is supposed to be a support class that repairs, defends, and has demolition capabilities. Just like in the RTS C&C games. It isn't supposed to be a Jack of all Trades like the current side-arm purchase system has made it. I think Engineers should be only allowed to purchase pistols. Whether that's the machine pistol or the heavy. Engineers with tiberium weapons and carbines are OP. That's what has made everyone use them. New Support Class? ---------------------- I kind of agree with having a class that can resupply units (in principle). I think having a deployable supply station would be better though. A purchasable supply station that can be destroyed and has a limited number of resupplies in it. It should have bright flashing lights on it too so enemies can spot it easily. Aircraft --------- I agree that aircraft suck right now. Period. In original Renegade aircraft could be a bit OP (particularly the Orca). It's completely flipped now though. The Orca blows. It is that simple. The machinegun has too small a magazine (or too long to reload) and the missiles are even slower to reload. Aircraft could use a lot of work. Credits/Refiner ----------------- I do not agree that you should have passive credit gain from a dead refinery or that you "shouldn't worry about money". Might as well not have money at all if that is the case. What I will agree about is that having a dead refinery makes for boring matches very quickly. Here's my solution. When your refinery is dead you should get a team wide desperation bonus. The longer your unit survives and the more units/vehicles it kills the higher the credits you earn for doing damage (not repairing) should be. MS = Minutes survived, K = Kills, and C = credits bonus per kill. The credits you earn are multiplied by C and then you add the original credits earned to the outcome. (MS * K) * 0.25 = C Example: (10 * 5) * 0.25 = 1.25 This is a crude example and idea that would need exact balancing, but it would be one that rewards playing well while at a disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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