Tell me about Free aim please

[HaTe]

Like I said, you have to take movement into consideration.

Also, for the record, a gun in the "ready" position behaves differently than a gun in the "relaxed" position, for aiming purposes.

Without taking movement into consideration, there is an advantage. When movement is taken into consideration, it has a disadvantage. Which is why it doesn't matter.

95% of free-aim users will angle the free-aim from the right side (so a left angle), by the way. It's the most efficient based on the hand of the gun and Renegade's movement.

[TopDawg]

I still don't have a strong opinion either way on its inclusion (which is immaterial since it's being added), but in any tunnel setting (of which there were many in the original) it seems like free aim is the best way to go about fighting, and that if you don't use it you'll be at a disadvantage (and even third person for that matter).

How much it practically affects the outcome, or whether it's merely a matter of preference, I guess we'll find out.

[Ban4life]

Like I said, you have to take movement into consideration.

Also, for the record, a gun in the "ready" position behaves differently than a gun in the "relaxed" position, for aiming purposes.

Without taking movement into consideration, there is an advantage. When movement is taken into consideration, it has a disadvantage. Which is why it doesn't matter.

95% of free-aim users will angle the free-aim from the right side (so a left angle), by the way. It's the most efficient based on the hand of the gun and Renegade's movement.

I agree now that movement negates all bonuses in nearly every situation for bullet velocity weapons, with maybe the exception of the shotgun.

My concern is still mostly with the snipers, railgun and personal ion cannon. Movement does not matter tor these weapons, especially at these distances. They are powerfull at long and medium ranges. They aren't meant to be all powerful close range. It is just unfair for such a weapon to have much more than 1/4 of the screen transformed in a target, while other weapons will often miss. If someone jumps me , I can free aim and shoot them before they touch the ground. I don't think westwood intended that.

I also disagree with R315r4z0r. Although everyone can gain this advantage, it makes some units much more powerful than intended. So powerful that it has to be turned off in my opinion.

I will give free aim a full green light if all snipers, ion cannons, railguns and other instahit weapons will miss if you aren't aiming at the target. With this I mean that shooting at our metaphorical shadow will not hit the target. Its a simple solution. Hits of instahit weapons only register if you actually hit the desired target and not just aim behind them, the solution allows for the extra tactics like repairing while looking your desired way and won't mess with the other weapons.

[HaTe]

It negates it for snipers as well. I would know more than most.

[R315r4z0r]

I think hitting a moving target with free aim is actually easier. That's actually the reason why I like using free aim in the first place... because of how much easier it is to hit a moving target.

Assuming the moving target is within short distance to you, that is. Once they are passed mid-range it doesn't make much difference if you have a bullet velocity weapon.

[HaTe]

I think hitting a moving target with free aim is actually easier. That's actually the reason why I like using free aim in the first place... because of how much easier it is to hit a moving target.

Assuming the moving target is within short distance to you, that is. Once they are passed mid-range it doesn't make much difference if you have a bullet velocity weapon.

Snipe against me and I guarantee you'll think different. Free-aim takes skill to use and to know how to play against it. A lot of skill.

[R315r4z0r]

Snipe against me and I guarantee you'll think different. Free-aim takes skill to use and to know how to play against it. A lot of skill.

True or not, I don't think that really matters. Skill I mean. Sure you can learn and master the skills to actively use and counter free-aim.. but most people don't do this.

If I'm going up vs someone who knows what to expect then it is an entirely different matter than going into a public game and racking up kills from unsuspecting players.

It's just a matter of quantity over quality. There are more people who don't know how to effectively counter free-aim with their movements. So, of course someone who knows how to counter free-aim will do better than someone who doesn't know how to and doesn't expect it. The issue isn't in the skill, but in the number of people who know how to use the skill.

[HaTe]

So then they either learn or continue to get stomped....is that not how aiming is in games already either way? Why should the unique extra element be grated as different? It makes the game as fun as it is for advanced players.

[R315r4z0r]

I agree with you. I'm not suggesting anything be done to free aim at all. It should be incorporated into Renegade X exactly as it was in Renegade.

[SFJake]

Except that free aim as an aiming gimmick is completely unfun and downright stupid?

[HaTe]

Except that free aim as an aiming gimmick is completely unfun and downright stupid?

Someone has never been good at free-aiming, clearly...

[SFJake]

You had to take the retarded response route. Whatever.

[SeriousSmiley]

I've noticed in the videos that there's no sticky crosshair in RenX, so I'm no longer worried about free aimers wallhumping. I doubt it'll be effective for more than keeping an eye on certain angles during repair duty. No doubt HaTe will foolishly look forward to the free aim update as he gets obliterated by my genetically superior hand-eye-coordination.

[Demigan]

Except that free aim as an aiming gimmick is completely unfun and downright stupid?

And let's not forget that since Renegade, just about NO OTHER GAME incorporated it, ESPECIALLY the COMPETITIVE one's?

Also, the reasons given by Hate and Razor could just as easily have applied to... wall-hopping? Building-hopping? You know, the glitches, bugs and some of those BAD DESIGN IDEA'S that were in Renegade?

There is nothing wrong with 3rd person done right. It gives you the ability to look around in 3rd person without a massive advantage like you see in our video, where you can have a 'shadow' that extents to more then 2x a person's height NEXT to that person. so... aim at person+2x height*1 time the width of person=3x the surface area on screen that would register a 'hit'.

With free aim, you saw the video, we could increase this even further.

Now here is where balance comes in:

Bullet-travel weapons suffer from this system. When you fire your bullet straight at a moving target, he's already gone by the time the bullet get's there. So at range, when the person is smaller but his to-hit area still larger then normal you are at a disadvantage.

Now in come the sniper classes, Renegades favorite and most-used classes. If they fire at this nice and large extra surface-area their hitscan weapons HIT. This scews the game heavily in favor of all instant-bullet weapons. Since anyone who goes up against them with, say, a Patch, will need to be close in order to negate their advantage that can be gotten with free-aim (and 3rd person).

Is that really what we want to go back to? Wasn't one idea of Renegade-X to make all infantry classes viable? Not just high-powered snipers with 3x more chance to hit someone unless you use the same system and are already CLOSE?

[HaTe]

I've noticed in the videos that there's no sticky crosshair in RenX, so I'm no longer worried about free aimers wallhumping. I doubt it'll be effective for more than keeping an eye on certain angles during repair duty. No doubt HaTe will foolishly look forward to the free aim update as he gets obliterated by my genetically superior hand-eye-coordination.

Not going to lie, I had a good laugh. Thanks for that.

Trust me, there's a wide variety of people that will come over from Renegade and decide to not play the game solely because of the lack of free-aim. I hang around in sniper servers all the time, and that is the general consensus about renegade x. It's a personal preference feature, and using it is their preference. Everyone arguing against it is just being selfish without even knowing how it works entirely . It's no surprise, but you really shouldn't comment on it unless you used it and used it well in Renegade. Otherwise, you're just another person screaming "advantage" just because someone else has more skill than you (no better than the "hacker" claim I get 5 times a game).

[SeriousSmiley]

It's not really a loss for the RenX community if those weirdos stay in Renegade's poorly textured tunnels...if free aim is no longer the issue, it's going to be lack of bright skins, the way the crosshair works, etc.

I said in the other thread that I believe reliance on free aim is a slight disadvantage in the open and I would assume that the lack of the Renegade crosshair's sticky dot will make it much harder to accurately wallhug without shooting the wall on accident or overexposing yourself to counteract that. I'll probably only use it to target people around corners or to watch important angles during repair duty.

[HaTe]

"weirdos"

.

[Ban4life]

I've noticed in the videos that there's no sticky crosshair in RenX, (...)

The crosshair is probably changed to a "static" design. Where the dot in the middle first showed where the gun was firing, it is now just shows where you are aiming. I think the mechanics have barely changed*. The only change I can think of, is the weapon spread. Time will tell.

*edit: the mechanics of third person shooting and the now invisible "snapping" of the dot.

HaTe, most people who posted here agree that the camera angle gives an area where you can hit the target while not aiming at him. Sniper weapons will not be affected by movement, especially from those differences that make free aim most potent.

To me, this clearly gives an abnormal large hit area. So far no arguments have even dented my believe in this. It is sound in practice as well as in theory.

Your arguments agains it are mostly sentimental. Sentiment is important in arguments for this game, but you are overdoing it.

As far as I can see, all arguments are on the table and I see little to sway you or you to sway me. I will read all arguments and view all evidence posted after this, but I will not participate anymore until I see clear evidence against my statements.

[HaTe]

Sniper weapons will not be affected by movement, especially from those differences that make free aim most potent.

I wasn't aware your reaction time was either able to predict movement before it occurs, or able to be exact. That's impressive. If we were robots that had close to immediate reaction time, what you said would be correct. We aren't though.

Let me put it this way:

If a target moves one way, you will be able to use that angle advantage. If he moves the other way, that advantage is gone and it actually makes him harder to hit. Now, when he is constantly changing directions rapidly, this "advantage" is no longer a direct "advantage." It's only an "advantage" when the target is moving one specific way or standing still (and even then you'd have to have chosen the right angle). The disadvantage comes when the target moves in the other direction. So, there is no real advantage. The only "advantage" comes for skilled players who are able to push the enemy to go in the one direction that gives them that advantage (which is VERY hard to do). Hence why there is no advantage, because any skilled player has an advantage in any game regardless. It's more of a personal preference tactic than anything else. It's not a real advantage, because it can be harmful just as much as helpful. The only advantage comes from hugging, which can easily be solved (and i have already posted a possible solution to).

I hope that clears it up. It's hard to put into words what I'm trying to say. Anyone who used free-aim regularly in Renegade (and especially elite snipers) know exactly what I'm talking about though.

[SeriousSmiley]

Hate uses free aim constantly and has to deal with the enemy changing direction. It's a preference thing, not a real advantage that way (imo it's a disadvantage on average). I used free aim situationally, but always at an angle to give me the aforementioned bigger target area...but this would make me an easier target as well because my side to side dodge covered less distance from the target's perspective. I could take movement out of the equation by hugging a wall, but as long as the RX crosshair stays the way it is now (static), this sort of free aim abuse wouldn't be as effective.

[Ban4life]

...

(...)Let me put it this way:

If a target moves one way, you will be able to use that angle advantage. If he moves the other way, that advantage is gone and it actually makes him harder to hit. Now, when he is constantly changing directions rapidly, this "advantage" is no longer a direct "advantage." It's only an "advantage" when the target is moving one specific way or standing still (and even then you'd have to have chosen the right angle). The disadvantage comes when the target moves in the other direction. (...)

I hope that clears it up. It's hard to put into words what I'm trying to say. Anyone who used free-aim regularly in Renegade (and especially elite snipers) know exactly what I'm talking about though.

...are you seriously trying to explain the most basic rule that moving makes you harder to hit? I agree. All elite snipers will know that. As well as any fps player. Moving in different directions has its own difficulties for free aim. I understand that too.

The point I was making was apparently not clear. The moment you fire a sniper weapon, the bullet will travel at such speeds that movement can be nearly neglected. This means that a bullet aimed just in front of someone (in first person to prevent confusion) will hit just in front of him. At the distances we are talking, movent at the point of firing a sniper weapon is moot.

[HaTe]

Hate uses free aim constantly and has to deal with the enemy changing direction. It's a preference thing, not a real advantage that way (imo it's a disadvantage on average). I used free aim situationally, but always at an angle to give me the aforementioned bigger target area...but this would make me an easier target as well because my side to side dodge covered less distance from the target's perspective. I could take movement out of the equation by hugging a wall, but as long as the RX crosshair stays the way it is now (static), this sort of free aim abuse wouldn't be as effective.

^This. I can tell this person has used and understands free-aim at the very least.

The point I was making was apparently not clear. The moment you fire a sniper weapon, the bullet will travel at such speeds that movement can be nearly neglected.

This is just false...It's not neglected at all. It's instant from when you press the button. When you're able to press the button is dependent on the RoF and reload speed of the gun. Whether or not it hits the target is dependent on where you're aiming at that moving target. You cannot neglect their movement, because you aren't able to predict their movement. It's a best-guess type of aiming. If movement could be "nearly neglected" then sniper shots would almost all be hits. The reality is that the vast majority aren't. The laser chaingun, the laser rifle, the volt, the repair gun (both), the PIC, the pistol, the railgun, and the shotgun all have the same velocity as the ramjet and sniper rifle, for the record.

[Daedhart]

Hate, do you have any videos of you actually using free-aim for sniping (not the demonstrational you already put up)? I think showing a video of you sniping without excessively utilizing the "shadow" effect in B4L's video would support your argument more than more words.

I personally used free-aim tonight and I think I might know what youre talking about with the movement disadvantage. However, if I understand you right, this disadvantage is the primary balancing factor for free-aim's "shadow" advantage? Im not understanding why; the disadvantage doesnt seem that big since most players will serpentine while moving, so you can just wait the quarter second it takes them to change their direction back to the optimal one.

Perhaps I just didnt notice as much because Im certainly not good at free-aiming, but I think its a bit unfair to demand somebody who is good at it to come here and denounce it and that only their opinion matters. I dont think anybody would willingly give up such an advantage; they would defend it passionately, as you have here.

The single argument I would make is that it clearly does give an advantage close range for instant-hit weapons like the sniper or Rail/PIC. Since both of those weapons are meant to be mid to long range, that alone should be enough of a reason to not include it so that those weapons arent more effective than they theoretically should be at specific ranges.

Frankly, I dont really care if its included in the final product or not. Its not going to be in the beta, but it sounds like its probably going to be added later. I think that point will be the best argument for/against the feature, and heres why: if free-aim is suddenly added to the game and we see a significant increase in K/D ratios for known snipers, then free-aim give an unfair advantage. If it doesnt, it doesnt.

Im not quite as passionate about this topic as the others are. Im just not wanting snipers to be as OP as they use to be. Since other things have changed to accommodate that desire of mine, then it doesnt matter that much to me.

BTW, I believe the word you are wanting is "negated".

[Daedhart]

Although having purposely tried using all night tonight (a good 4 hours of gameplay), I must say I frequently ran into the issue where there are two many keystrokes pressed and it just stops registering new key presses. Is that something you run into often, Hate?

[HaTe]

I have free-aim set to to my middle mouse button for convenience.

I used to have a montage that this video was part of. I have since taken it down because too many people were asking me to teach them how to snipe like I do.

Please keep in mind that I was one of the very best snipers in renegade. Ive played over 200 1v1s now and I can count how many times I've lost on one hand. It's sort of unfair to look at a video from me and judge free-aim based on it because of how good I am at the game...(trying my best not to sound cocky, but it's really just the truth - sorry). Even without free-aim I am able to be this good too...I just play at a high sensitivity and so free-aim makes the sscreen move less, which means less headaches. I have been sniping in Renegade since sniper servers came into existence, and almost any sniper in renegade knows me as one of the best at it (i'm sorry this sounds so egotistical, I just don't know how else to say it).

[Valor]

What is your player name in the beta?

And that video really gives someone the best example of what free aim can be useful for. Should be stickied or something.

[HaTe]

I haven't been able to be active on the beta recently. My PC has a virus (I'm typing on a tablet), and I have not had the time nor money to fix it or have someone else fix it (I'm currently at college and playing a college sport). Hopefully I can get it fixed fairly soon though.

[TopDawg]

As someone who only used free aim in vehicles, I guess I still don't entirely understand.

The way I'm reading it is that in one direction you have a rather large advantage (provided you have the correct angle), and in the other direction (from that same angle) it's not a disadvantage, but merely no advantage. The same kind of way it is regardless if you only ever use first person view and not third person view and free aim.

If it is an actual disadvantage, then I guess I haven't picked up on that from this thread.

[HaTe]

Why did you use free-aim in vehicles instead of locking the vehicle camera to turret?

The disadvantage comes when the target moves in the opposite direction that gives the advantage.

[TopDawg]

Perhaps that's what it was and not free aim then. I believe 'V' was the default key for that, but it had to be held if I recall correctly. It enabled you to drive backwards and to have the turret be the center of the screen more or less.

I still don't understand what makes that a disadvantage though. Is it not simply the 'normal' that would otherwise be experienced in first person view? I mean the whole reason free aim, and to a lesser extent third person view, even gives an advantage is because bullets are rendered from the gun (as opposed to the center of the screen, like in Counter-Strike for instance).

So I guess I still just don't understand what makes that a disadvantage, as opposed to just no advantage, in the opposite direction.

[HaTe]

Locking the camera to the turret made using "V" in a vehicle useless because it allowed you to turn all the way around without having to press the extra button.

It makes you easier to hit, for one. It also makes them harder to hit, and you are then forced to change up your free-aim angle, which gives them a little bit of time to react. It's hard to explain in words. Perhaps if someone joined me in a game at some point I could fraps and show you on my buddies PC.

[TopDawg]

I guess I never knew about that. I mostly quit Renegade to play PlanetSide, which I ended up playing quite a lot (but PS2 was a huge letdown) - but anyway.

The being easier to hit part makes sense, because your straffe is more parallel to them than perpendicular (although exactly how much easier to hit depends a lot on the angle). I still don't understand what makes them harder to hit, though. It seems to me like the 'shadow area' simply gets smaller or goes away, which is then the same as if simply only using first person.

I must admit I was not really aware of the advantage (other than view) that third person view gave (and especially when combined with free aim). As I said before I don't really have a strong opinion either way, and am mostly just trying to figure out if it's merely a preference thing or if it's something that has to be used in order to be competitive.

Personally, it seems like an extra hoop or two to jump through in order to be competitive. But as I've also been saying, I still don't think I understand it completely. I suppose time and hands-on experience will tell.

[Daedhart]

I have free-aim set to to my middle mouse button for convenience.

I used to have a montage that this video was part of. I have since taken it down because too many people were asking me to teach them how to snipe like I do.

Please keep in mind that I was one of the very best snipers in renegade. Ive played over 200 1v1s now and I can count how many times I've lost on one hand. It's sort of unfair to look at a video from me and judge free-aim based on it because of how good I am at the game...(trying my best not to sound cocky, but it's really just the truth - sorry). Even without free-aim I am able to be this good too...I just play at a high sensitivity and so free-aim makes the sscreen move less, which means less headaches. I have been sniping in Renegade since sniper servers came into existence, and almost any sniper in renegade knows me as one of the best at it (i'm sorry this sounds so egotistical, I just don't know how else to say it).

I understand the skill level completely, and I dont doubt it.

Even so, regardless of how skilled you are, free-aim when properly used can give an advantage (a boost to your skill) for close combat sniping. I witnessed this in many of your videos. It doesnt matter if that advantage is due to the shadow effect or simply preventing headaches. Simply put, free-aim allows for easier close combat sniping.

However, since I usually avoid sniping (since Im terrible at it), it would be rare to catch me with my pants down in such a situation. Any use of free-aim against me wouldnt give too large of an advantage, since it would be at long range. Thats why Im not really caring if its included or not.

In the end, you cant deny the advantage it grants. Whether or not this advantage can be declared as a personal preference is a matter of debate. Such a free-aim system wouldnt be found in real-life or in any other FPS, but Renegade was never the same as other FPS's.

I always like comparing to CS:S because of all the traumatizing memories I have . Grenades in that game are included in the same vain as free-aim is in Renegade. Nobody could deny they gave an advantage to the players who mastered the fiddly little bastards and knew exactly where and how to throw them so they ended up right in the other player's face. But was their use just personal preference? After all, everybody had access to them; its not like its the elite players' fault that everybody else wanted to just play with their pointy-shooty makes-them-fall-downs.

[HaTe]

I still don't understand what makes them harder to hit, though. It seems to me like the 'shadow area' simply gets smaller or goes away, which is then the same as if simply only using first person.

Because if they weren't using free-aim they would be aiming at you directly, which means you effectively see them from a side angle. (Which is a smaller target area). Also, that target can easily get behind the person and throw off the free-aiming (which is how I die at the end of the video).

[TopDawg]

I still don't understand what makes them harder to hit, though. It seems to me like the 'shadow area' simply gets smaller or goes away, which is then the same as if simply only using first person.

Because if they weren't using free-aim they would be aiming at you directly, which means you effectively see them from a side angle. (Which is a smaller target area).

I still just don't understand that part I guess lol. I've seen the video, I've even checked out another you posted (

- and another actually

), and I just don't see where the smaller target disadvantage is. If they're aiming directly at you, their shoulders will be facing you 'square on', giving the you the widest possible target regardless.

It does look like some of them are using free aim as well though, in which case their shoulders are 'sideways' giving a smaller target area, but that seems to only happen when they're also employing free aim. If they are directly facing you though and you're using free aim, they do end up seeing you from a 'sideways' view, which makes you a smaller target area but also makes you somewhat easier to shoot, since straffing is somewhat negated due to that fact.

As I said though I don't particularly care one way or the other, other than learning what's 'best' from a competitive standpoint, and since it's finally 2 days away (plus however long until free aim's inclusion) I'll hopefully be able to gauge for myself in game.

[HaTe]

If they aren't using free-aim and are aiming directly at me, they will be aiming at my character, not my camera angle. Which means that I don't see their whole front side when I am using free-aim, because their front side is looking directly at my character, and I am not viewing from my character's perspective.

[Demigan]

HaTe, your current argument is that movement makes them harder to hit.

Let's see how that works:

First person: you enter a hallway, see your enemy and aim for him. Your enemy is moving so you adjust your aim and fire, hoping you predicted his movements and press the moment your reticule is on your enemy.

Third person+free aim: you enter a hallway, you see your enemy and aim for him+if you miss you have a chance of hitting 2x extra surface area. Your enemy is moving so you adjust your aim and fire, hoping you predicted his movements and press the moment your reticule is on your enemy, OR on the 2x extra surface area.

At worst, your enemy will run into the center of your screen, where this area goes back to 1.1 and maybe even 1.0 surface area you can hit. The horror! for one tiniest of milliseconds you have to shoot the same surface area a first-person player is shooting at! oh noes!

(this is basic math: the more the enemy goes to one side, the larger the additional surface area becomes, so at the dead center between the maximum area's there should be a 0 additional surface area part, however, since the person is standing on the ground he would need to be at a precise elevation as well to complete an exact no-additional surface area point).

Oh, and HaTe, don't make personal comments about other players like 'They don't know how this works' or 'they must be bad players'. I have demonstrated I knew exactly what i was talking about.

Here is your second post I believe:

Except you aren't aiming for a shadow or behind an enemy....you're aiming at him. It doesn't make him bigger or make him easier to hit in any way at all. I'll make a video and show you (I would know...).

me and Ban4life have strictly proven that it DOES give an advantage, and not a small one at that. You have changed your argument a few times since. Your arguments do not become stronger by insulting or degrading other people ('they don't know what they are talking about' etc).

Also, I have analysed your first video, and will be putting an analysis video of your first and second video online. In the first video you actually hit once, all other shots were 'shadow' shots. (would be neat if you had some higher-resolution video's available, it's hard to keep track of the reticule as it is).

Also, since your sniper servers solely consist of people using free-aim from what I can gather, there is the exact proof that yes, this IS far better then normal sniping.

[HaTe]

My point was that when movement is taken into consideration it does not provide an advantage...

I'm in no way trying to make this personal, but I have been using free-aim for over half a decade now and you seem to be implying that you know more about it based on going in game for a few hours and trying to make a video out of it...

Sniper servers aren't 100% free-aim users. Xpert, one of the other best snipers doesn't use free-aim, for instance. Let me put it this way: if you had the option to have the camera be still and not constantly moving at a high sensivitity, would you use it in a sniper server? It's personal preference. Some would say yes and others would say no. It gives the 2 players 2 different playing styles, but both have their advantages and disadvantages.... It's not like free-aim is ultimately better by any means....any advantage given is negated by the disadvantage for free-aim and regular third person alike.

It's like having a different way to hold an Xbox controller (some professional players use a different way). It provides an advantage in some cases, and a disadvantage in others. It doesn't mean that it should be disallowed though, as either way to play is valid. If you haven't tried the other way, you would look at it and assume that it provides that player with an advantage because he is able to dropshot quicker or whatever. But when you actually try it and play with it, you realize that that advantage is negated by the fact that it makes other buttons harder to hit as a result. The same can be said about free-aim. It makes some things easier, and other things harder when aiming.

I encourage you to go in game and actually try it out in a sniper server and see how well you do with it. I think experiencing it first hand will do you some good for understanding it. Your argument comes from "in theory," and a few hours of testing it out. I'm arguing from experience and practice (phronesis), so naturally I will assume that I know more about how it works.

[Demigan]

I encourage you to go in game and actually try it out in a sniper server and see how well you do with it. I think experiencing it first hand will do you some good for understanding it. Your argument comes from "in theory," and a few hours of testing it out. I'm arguing from experience and practice (phronesis), so naturally I will assume that I know more about how it works.

Actually, I have been talking about the advantages and disadvantages of 3rd person since the dawn of Renegade. I have tried both, and regardless of free-aim the advantage should be kept in check.

I actually have tried free-aim, and so far it hasn't been all that difficult. I know how good I am normally, and aiming near someone hasn't been my problem at all. But with free-aim, I have 50% chance to be on the 'advantage' side with the shadow and hit them anyway. It's pretty ridiculous.

[ehh]

open sniping it doesn't give you that much of an advantage, its just preference.

When there's walls and hugging involved, yeah it does, you are able to pre aim, peak, shoot and then get back into cover. Which is why I don't want free aim in renx, gets pretty homo when 2 + people do that at each side of the tunnel =[

[TopDawg]

I obviously won't know until I try it for myself, but it still just seems like it's superior to non free aim in an enclosed setting (and even third person is better than first person, although more negligible). I'm still not getting the disadvantage associated with free aim, other than them walking behind you/out of the camera angle, but that's possible in any scenario anyway, and any time that happens will require readjustment.

I can definitely see the benefits for an Engy or whatnot in using free aim for better situational awareness. But as the videos demonstrated, you pretty much have to be stupid (or unwilling to learn it) to not use free aim when you're in a tunnel, because not only can you line up the shot before they can even see you (I mean let's face it, I'm no stranger to third person corner camping, I did play PS after all), it essentially increases the size of their hitbox anywhere except dead center, in which case it's just normal sized.

Unfortunately free aim is kind of an all or nothing system, and changing it in pretty much any way will change it entirely. Perhaps a compromise to allow free aim but disallow the advantage would be to simply remove the crosshairs when using it (similar to what PS did while in third person view). But again, that fundamentally changes its purpose and it's no longer really free aim then.

I dunno, /shrug. Ultimately like I said though, I'm not too invested either way, and if it's better I'll just learn to use it like everyone else. And if it ends up negating other classes, although that makes for bad game design, I won't have any problem playing primarily the snipers and PIC/Raveshaw for infantry, just like in the original Renegade lol.

[Demigan]

Before things escalate. HaTe, I understand that you probably didn't intentionally insult people. I just hope you will keep an eye on it next time.

The video I'm making isn't going to be cracking down on you or how you snipe, it's to show how effective free-aim is.

Free-aim does have the disadvantage that you will need to exit free-aim, re-aquire and use free-aim again if your enemy gets too close and goes out of one of the edges. But this scenario is hard to achieve: you need to get close first, then move through the sweet-spot where practically the entire side of the screen can be shot at for a hit before you force your enemy to do that. Add in that most of Renegade's infantry-combat happened in tunnels like the one in your video, and movement is limited. You can easily see how you (HaTe) uses this mechanic to the fullest: he puts the camera at an angle that shows the entire hallway, goes into free-aim and starts snaking up and down the hallway. This turns it more into an old shooter where the screen just moves around and you move your mouse to aim. You (HaTe) only need to re-do this when you reach another corner.

[HaTe]

Anyone who regularly plays the game and uses free-aim on occasion or always knows that it's no advantage when open aiming. Tristt (ehh), SeriousSmiley, and I are the only 3 players that are posting in this topic that have played competitive Renegade (clanwars, commwars, etc.) afaik. All 3 of us know how it works because we've used it ourselves, instead of basing the usage of it off of principle. All of us know that it is not an advantage. The only advantage is in hugging, which (again), I have proposed an easy fix for already...

I seriously encourage you to use it and see if you do any better than you currently do in a sniper server. I'm serious. Try it.

[Demigan]

HaTe, how come you think I haven't played any clanwars? How come you know for a certainty none of the others have played clanwars?

Also, it's not 'just' about the principle. It's about the game. I don't want a feature that makes certain guns (all hit-scan weapons) far more potent then normal bullet-travel weapons. 3rd person can be done in a way that it gives very little actual shadow as shown in one of my first posts here. I'm not sure if the same can be said about free-aim. If the shadow can be kept small and neglegible, sure! why not! Otherwise I have definitely proven that it DOES give advantage. You don't just discard 3x more surface area to hit by saying 'it has disadvantages that weigh up against it'. I have yet to hear a good disadvantage that doesn't count for first-person or normal 3rd-person as well.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

why not just increase the base spread with free-aim the further away you aim from the middle of the screen... like free-aim is only good for sniping, jeez...

lol

[Xpert]

As HaTe mentioned, I'm a non-freeaim user. I just never could adapt to it in the 13+ years I've played C&C Renegade. The only time I ever touch freeaim is just to get the hitbox of a player around the corner when I'm hugging a wall or when I'm in a tank of course. Other than that, I just glide my mouse to shoot or target someone in the open. Using freeaim in the open isn't an advantage. It's different from non-freeaim, but it isn't an advantage lol.

[HaTe]

I know you're not a clanwars player based on your posts in other topics, and this topic alike. You didn't know or use certain features that any clanwars player definitely knew about (by clanwars player, I mean officially - clanwars.cc registered). If you were, what clan and what was your nickname? Perhaps it is still logged.

That's now 4/4 "pro" players in this game stating that no advantage is given in the open when using free-aim, for the record. The only ones arguing it does are the ones will the least experience with/against it...

[TopDawg]

To be fair though, I don't think anyone's arguing about using it in the open; and at the very least I certainly haven't been. It's about how strong it is in an enclosed setting (like inside tunnels, especially like in the linked videos). But, it's like I said up above.

[Daedhart]

After playing the game, I have no fear about free-aim being added anymore. The cursor isnt dynamic like in the original, so you have no idea where your bullet will go (tank or infantry) in any situation more complex than a flat field.