Anonymously
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Always exciting to see and play with old familiar names again. Looking forward to it.
Gozy, your signature doesn't seem to be working?
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Yep.
That's the same file I've been using all along. That along with some of my own calculations that take warhead and armortype into consideration
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Any chance you still have logs/access to the stats?
As the name and signature suggest, I would prefer to remain anonymous.
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Not somehow... It's a 5v5 game. It is probable that when you're working as a team, GDI will try to get a majority of medium tanks while Nod will get a majority of teched arts.
If I was leading this 5v5 game, there'd be 2 lights and 3 arts with techs inside the arts using cover, while the light tanks are up front trying to draw and evade the fire. It'd be kind of stupid for a nod team to try to use 3 arts with 2 techs in the first place if they have the credits to get light tanks instead (they should if each GDI player has 800+ credits).
I must add that once GDI gets their meds into position at med hill / around the Nod tiberium area, it's pretty darn hard to get them out of there.I agree. GDI can barricade nod quite efficiently on Field. They would have to do that for the full 30-35 minutes (if we're talking competitive play) for them to win though. If nod even takes the field for 5 minutes, they will take the lead normally. The Arty's ability to hit the WF from such a great distance and do so much damage cannot be matched by GDI's ability to hit the hon closeup with a medium tank, meanwhile nod has tech'd arties firing back at them. If they rushed in together, they'd be killed immediately, and then nod would take the field. If all 5 try and hold the field, 1 nod simply lays a nuke, forcing 1 GDI player to suicide. That nod player either defends the nuke or rejoins the battle to retake field. Then nod has successfully taken the field back 9/10 times. It's just too hard for GDI to do as much damage as Nod can.
I respectfully disagree. Evil white dragon used to keep statistics on this for our servers (TK2 and BI) and they showed an almost 50 / 50 win / loss ratio on all standard maps. I found a reference back here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php ... msg_326294 . Yes, it dates from 2008, but the game hasn't changed. I'll ask him if he still has the details, but I doubt it.I'm very curious to see if that has any actual proof behind it, or is just a mere claim to try and make Renegade look better than the game in comparison. I've played in both the TK2 and BI servers (I even helped test BI servers from time to time), and the results were the same. Jelly had multiple AOW servers (including mini), and though no stats were ever published to my knowledge; having played there, I can say that it was the same. On Field I barely even have to try to win as nod on public servers, but on GDI I have to try hard and still have to rely on a better overall team to win the game. I'd be very shocked if EWD or SE have actual evidence of these numbers, rather than it simply being a hopeful claim.
As said before, from my personal experience (in smaller games), GDI had an advantage at the game start with their better rifle soldiers attacking / defending the harv (+ getting the very important crate!)Yes, GDI has the early game advantage on any map because of their superior automatic rifle damage. This plays a gigantic role on map like city/city_fly, but not too great on Field. For one, if the teams are of equal skill, nod should almost always still be able to defend and keep their harvester alive. And for two, Even if GDI kills the nod harvester, they still have to wait in order to purchase their first med tank. The 300 credit drop from the harvester won't be enough for them. They'd get a MRLS at best. It still gives nod enough time to purchase their first arty before a GDI med can take the field. Keep in mind that the stock Renegade crate spawns either mid tunnel or on the nod side, so nod usually has an advantage in getting that crate.
I just wanted to point out that these statistics are only representative for the server that generated them and that other people may have a different experience on other servers.These are simply the only final win ratio statistics I could find. I've been playing the game since it's 2002 release and have experienced the same overall nod dominance on the map since then, regardless of the server.
We will see how it rolls once RenX, with its own specifics, will be released / beta tested. Until then we're speculating. It's good to seei nterest.Yes I agree. Once again, this was simply to inform using my Renegade knowledge; I recognize that your intentions are the same and I respect that.
I'm stating that it does not matter that much, you either get the field (winning tank battles) or you don't.It's what happens after the Field is taken that I am pointing out. I've only seen a handful of games where a GDI team has successfully held the Field from start to end. I'm pointing out that Nod's ability to gain points/do building damage on Field is so much easier than GDI's ability to do the same, that it ends up being easy for nod to win. GDI can have the Field for 25 minutes, and nod can have it for 10, and nod would end up winning by points the majority of the time.
I actually don't disagree with your suggestions of taking off the hand ramp. I read / heard that RenX wants to make maps more open. I'm 100 % in favour of this. If anything, the more different ways to destroy a base, the better. I just think it will not make much of a difference.I think it would make a huge difference personally.
Thanks for keeping the argument peaceful and informative so far.
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Yes I just find it to be aggravating that the game is almost 12 years old now, and someone is still claiming that it "was" bad. The fact that they say "was" when it is still an active game says enough. If someone is going to claim a 12 year old game is bad in a review, they may as well try it out again to reassure themselves, rather than simply go off of what their original experience was with the game.
Sort of like when Diablo 3's servers couldn't hold the amount of people that were trying to login in the first few days. They've since added servers and almost entirely fixed the issue, yet people still complain about the poor servers. I guess first impressions are the most lasting ones - which was never a good thing for Renegade.
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Always aggravates me to see someone claim that Renegade was not a good game. The singleplayer was poor and the multiplayer had glitches and lag galore when it was first released. It's been patched and edited so much since the release that for people to claim it is not a good game just shows that they are making a review based off of a game they maybe tried a few times when it was first released. Sorry, but if you're going to make a review - do your research.
But at least they are recognizing Renegade X and getting it publicity I suppose.
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Jelly's main server is marathon and 51 players. Most of the time it has 24+ players.
The small game section is taken into account in the original post's statistics. You are right that Jelly normally does have a high player count (as proven by the numbers), however, the stats still favor nod drastically (34-13); and even moreso, in the smaller game atmosphere at Jelly than the bigger games.
TK2 (my clan) has ran public and CW servers up to max 20 players with standard AOW setup for many years. My experience learned me that with proper teamwork, GDI was more or less unbeatable on Field on our server setup. One of the reasons was actually Renegade's stock vehicle limit. Renegade has a vehicle limit of 7 tanks + the harvester.In my experience, with two equal skilled teams, nod will win 90% of the games on Field, regardless of the player count or vehicle limit. A lower vehicle count actually favors nod more than GDI when you take into account that Nod has the ability to utilize technicians more than GDI has the ability to utilize hotwires on Field.
Let's say you play a 5v5 game. GDI gets 5 Meds while Nod will get 3 arts with 2 technicians. The 5 Meds will always slaughter the 3 arts when fighting as a group.Oh? I respectfully disagree.
Allow me to use a bit of mathematical proof as evidence.
A single tech'd arty will kill a med tank in ~13 seconds.
A single med will kill a tech'd arty in ~5 minutes (yes, you read that right).
Now, what you're saying is that (somehow) GDI was able to get 5 med tanks, and for whatever reason, nod only decided to get 3 arties and 2 technicians. Once again, somehow, all of these tanks happened to meet in the field at the exact same time. Taking away the improbability of this to begin with, nod will still manage to win out a cool majority of the time if we're talking about experienced and quality players. I could put scenarios in all day to prove it; but to save time, I simply put the end game results in statistical format in the original post.
A 2nd element is the marathon element and server added options like donating or starting credits.Starting credits at the Jelly marathon in specific are the default 0, and donations are not allowed until something like 3 or 5 minutes in. The only difference is the crate giving more than the default crate gives.
What's the use of have an advantage in taking out Nod's harvester if Nod can simply donate or use starting credits to get their arts anyway?I'm not certain how little you play anymore, but Jelly has never had starting credits, and donation is only turned on after a timelimit, as previously stated.
Now it's surely true that GDI seems to require some more teamwork on Field, but if you have this teamwork, then I dare to say that (on servers with up to 24 players anyways), GDI has a better chance of winning than Nod.Not when the teams are of equal skill level...
Ask any clanwar player if they prefer GDI or Nod on standard field (with a time limit), they'll answer GDI.I'll go ahead and ask myself then. I prefer nod every damn time. The most recent 5 1v1 Field games I played (against elite players, have you), I went 4-1. I was nod in 3 and GDI in 2. I won all 3 with nod, and one with GDI. Nod went 4-1 in the games. I'm a very experienced player (having played clanwars, lobby wars, community wars, etc. pretty often). I've played both with you and against you before as well. I don't remember you ever participating in a clanwar, but I remember you in community wars in particular. I also know you from Renegadeforums.com, where you used to actively moderate. I'm just unsure on how much actual small game Field experience you have if you honestly believe GDI is superior on the map? Not to offend, but it can't be a whole lot against real elite players...
TS seems to make the mistake of "judging" (for a lack of a better word) the map on the building placements. IMO Renegade is a tank game. It doesn't matter where the enemy building is, if you own the field with tanks.In AOW, hitting buildings gets your more points than anything else. Getting more points wins you the game. In marathon, you have to hit a building or rush a building to win the game. Nod has a huge advantage in hitting buildings and rushing buildings on Field. I'm not judging the map on the building placements, I'm criticizing the layout of the map, and providing statistical evidence proving that it is flawed in that it drastically favors one faction.
To end this post just a friendly warning. Do not make the mistake that many server owners made in Renegade. Do not start changing unit's characteristics because you think one side or one map is biased towars one or the other side. There will always be people saying GDI is OP or Nod is OP. In reality, by some miracle Westwood managed to make Renegade very balanced on different types of games (rush maps, base defense maps, small, big, ...). The more you are going to change the original characteristics, the more problems you will have because changing one unit will always have consequences for other units.My suggestion was to get rid of the ramp next to the Hand of Nod. In no way was I suggesting editing any unit. It's not really "some miracle" neither. Though Westwood and EA did not glitch test the game very well, they spent the majority of their time balance testing. If you look at the objects files or the damage calculations in Renegade, you'd probably understand that more.
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Ah yes, from that it appears to be very similar
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Any chance we can get an overhead snapchat view of the map? It's hard for me to compare it to the original map without yet ever playing it. I was just curious to as why it was still being called "mesa" when the mesa aspect to the map was actually entirely removed lol. But yeah, if the layout is the same, then I see your point. Personally, I still see plenty of differences from the original map (enough to allow you to give it a new name
), but that's just me again. -
I'm going to go ahead and bump this topic rather than make a whole new one.
Is there any chance we can view the models of each tank and their weak/strong points, and how much extra damage is done per hit to each specific point?
It's an interesting idea, but I'm undecided yet as to if it will be a positive addition or a negative addition into the game. I suppose it would take testing in order for me to form a full opinion.
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Alright, fair enough
I'm aware of the original Renegade map name, but it just seems as if it looks like a brand new map entirely. I recognize the layout being fairly similar, but there's also a lot of differences (don't get me wrong - I very much like that it is different). If I were you, I would have renamed it and said it was "Inspired from the original Renegade map "Mesa."" But that's just me, since I'm nitpicking
Once again though, it does look absolutely beautiful and I can tell a lot of time and effort was put into it. Cannot wait to see how it plays.
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The map looks stunning from the video and I cannot wait to play it.
One question though. It doesn't exactly appear to be a mesa? A mesa is defined as having a relatively flat top (such as a tabletop).
This, for example is a Mesa:
However, this is what is shown in the video as the "Mesa:"
Love the map from the video alone, but I'm curious to as why it is being called "Mesa" when the center actually looks more like a regular mountain than a plateau at all? I suppose it is a tiny bit flat, but not enough to be considered a "mesa." Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but it just seemed odd to me.
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Crates will be a server side option and crate probabilities can be changed. So if you don't want spy crate set the probability to 0.
Yes I understand that. I'm just saying that stock Renegade only had the yellow box options, and so that's what clanwars has always used. Since competitive servers won't be hosted by the Renegade X team themselves, that would mean that clanwars servers would all have to follow one specific crate system (in order to keep each server consistent). Since the Renegade ones were 100/refill crates, then I think that the default crate options should be limited to just that, and then server owners can edit it from there.
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Thanks for the answers.
For the 100 credits/refill crate - I was talking about the default yellow box. In competitive play, these are the only available options in the crate - and they play a rather large early game role. Having default crates have spy crates and more than 100 credits would be too much for a competitive style game (such as a clanwar).
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I think that's a good decision. There's bound to be updates needed to be worked on regularly for the first few months, at least.
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I've played against this guy:
and i think he would have something to say about your "best sniper" claim
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In Renegade, every single character is right handed. This effects aiming and shooting quite a bit, especially with free-aim. Will any characters in Renegade X be left handed? I think it'd be cool to have that addition.
Will "X" (180 spin) be in Renegade X?
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That's what the release in February is, the multiplayer mode. Communities host their own servers and you can join which ever ones you want to. I'm assuming there will be a server listing like in Renegade.
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Will Renegade X be using the 2/3 credits per second ticks, or stick to the 2 credits per second?
How are one of the "Tech buildings" to be captured, and what is the amount of bonus that it will add?
Will there at least be the default 100 credits/refill crate implemented by the beta release?
What is the current price for an air strike, and how much damage will it do to a tank with a direct hit?
Will the Air strike prices be doubled when a power plant is destroyed, or still remain the same?
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The Hotwire/Technician is not overpowered in the sense that the unit does too much for the price. It's overpowered in the sense that it's uses expand across so much of the game that there is no other purchasable alternative. The idea is simply a solution to that - it adds an alternative unit to purchase, whilst giving each character specific improvements and nerfs based on their specific role that balance each other out.
Here's a couple of examples on how much use the character gets, and how effective it is in just about any situation. This is in competitive play, but the idea isn't just to implement it there - it's to implement in throughout...ideally.
If you watch the whole thing, there's really only 3 total character purchases to be seen in this particular game. 90%+ of the characters purchased are the hotwire/technician - as expected in competitive play. There's a couple havocs and a sakura at one point too I believe, and then an early game laser chain gunner to try and fend off the early game APC rush (GDI had thought that they were playing on Walls_Flying, and were all waiting for the credits to buy an orca. Only to realize that the map was Walls, which was unexpected).
It's just that there's no other reason to buy any other character in this type of situation. You're always going to buy a tech/hotty when in a vehicle if you have the money, and you're always going to 1 man rush with one too. The idea is to try and mix this up. Maybe rushing with the infantry technician is a better choice in the circumstance because of the 3 rc4s and proximity mines to defend the c4s on the MCT. Maybe not. The decision is yours. Right now, in classic Renegade, there is no decision to be made. It's unanimous. Why would you go with anything else?
Saying that the SBH has the most building kills is actually not a very strong indicator, leading to faulty arguments. Should we make the ramjet rifle do higher damage to buildings, so Sakura/Havoc will have more building kills?The specific details of the argument I was making was that of a Marathon game mode. The Sakura/Havoc are already more than enough effective on their own against all infantry, and all light armored vehicles. They're so much better than any unit at that that they don't need to be a building threat. That's like comparing the APC to the stealth tank. Obviously both have completely different functions and roles. What I was comparing was strictly the building killers of the game.
That even low skilled players can use this is not a reason to change it.Were you not one of the ones making the argument that noobs with an SBH ruin the game because they aren't being effective? Well if the activation/deactivation mode were put in place, they would likely die rather quickly as an SBH (since it takes more skilled players to use with the addition of the edit). Meaning they would have to use another unit - such as a repairing unit - that would help the team much more.
SBH's will have reduced power due to more players in the game and prevention of hopping.More players in the game? The limit is 64. The limit on many servers back in the day was that or greater even in some cases. Just because the maximum is higher doesn't mean that any servers will consistently maintain that many players. Even so, some servers will choose to set the maximum player count at a number even lower than that. SBH's also don't hop very often, and can easily be seen in Renegade when they do anyway. Really was never an issue in Renegade (since it also takes somewhat skilled players to know how to hop).
Eventually you just have to wait until the release.Once again, all of this is theoretical, and is *mostly* based off of original Renegade, but with the changes in Renegade X in mind (though obviously not tested to completion).
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No, just implying that point whoring to get to the top of the leader board in a public game is quite easy.
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it's mine/c4/nuke disarm power decreases, but the vehicle repair power stays the same as the original? it does not increase?
i thought it's vehicle repair power would increase. or am i right here? please tell me. if it's vehicle repair power stays the same, i don't see any problem with this.
Yes, the vehicle/building specific technician's repair power to vehicles would remain the same as it is in current Renegade.
It would essentially only have 3 differences from the original technician in Renegade:
1. Repairs c4s/beacons/infantry at the rate of the weak repair gun in current Renegade.
2. Repairs buildings from the outside a bit faster than the current technician repair gun.
3. Has anti-tank mines (at a limit of 3 per player) to replace proximity mines (since it's role is vehicle/building specific).
although i don't see much diffrence in being 3 seconds faster when disarming mines. C4 on a building is something entirely diffrent though, allthough that puts you in a defensive position, which means you're only a couple of inches away from a purchase terminal. so...It's the other technician that would receive the faster c4 repairing bonus (I'm not sure where 3 seconds came from though?). His changes would be:
1. Repairs buildings/vehicles at the rate of the current weak repair gun in Renegade.
2. Repairs c4s a bit faster than the current strong repair gun in Renegade.
3. Is given 3 rc4s (with a 5 second reload to lay the 3rd) and one timed c4, instead of the original 2 timed, 2 rc4s that the other technician would posses (since it is infantry based. This could also help a rush of 2 of these bad boys take out a building in 10 seconds theoretically).
don't get me wrong here. i was just making an addition to your post, not changing anything.I know. It just seemed to me as if your statement was sort of off-topic since it was about having no repair unit in a game, whereas my idea was to split it into two units. Just made me think you didn't understand is all, my mistake.
also, regarding the discussion about SBH's. there really isn't a point in discussing this. yes, they're powerful, but there are more then mines to stop them from mining the entrance.Then why is it that SBH's have the 2nd leading building kills (through nukes and c4s) on non-base defense maps for Nod (second to only the arty of course, which is much higher)? Especially in a marathon specific mode - it's just too useful in certain circumstances (especially when they manage to pick up a sniper...).
and it's hard to teamplay with some russians who don't know english, stanislav's or some random ego-maniac.Oh believe me, I know. Team-play is almost impossible in public servers, even if you're trying your absolute best to make it happen. People just don't understand or don't care enough to listen.
i can guarantee myself a top position in the leaderboard.I think that most skilled players could manage to get a top spot on the leaderboard almost every game if they tried hard to do so. Pointwhoring is unbelievably easy in a marathon mode in today's Renegade in particular
too bad i'm so persistent in C4'ing enemy buildings with a hotwire thoughCould be that the infantry based technician is just your thing then. 3 remote rc4s and 1 timed make it so that a rush of 2 of these is more effective to an unsuspecting team than a rush of 2 regular technicians.
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Why are you capitalizing each letter in Nod?
I also addressed that the SBH's camping the weapon drops would be essentially fixed with this idea implemented. Even the most skilled player can still unluckily have his tank stolen by an SBH. It's not hard to get out, repair, get back in and shoot, then repeat. Sometimes you have to get out and repair in order to survive though, and that's when a lurking SBH can steal your vehicle. It's just unlucky.
Like I said, everything I said is theoretical. So you may very well be right. I know it's a new game with a different gameplay. I can only base what I'm saying off of the current Renegade though. To base it off of a game that only beta testers can play from time to time would be irrational at best.
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"Can't protect his base well?"
The reason GDI loses on most Walls public games is because of SBH nukes or 3 SBH timed c4 rushes. How do you defend against it? Even with perfect mining and constant camping, one can still get in. You also failed to address how easy it is for them to steal enemy vehicles as is as well. Believe me, i recognize and support the stealth unit on Nod and how it has its advantages and disadvantages. However, the stealth advantage is too great in Renegade, and even with the changes in Renegade X, I really don't see that changing without something additional being changed. The addition of bushes and shrubbery on a map like Islands in Renegade X introduces more spots for a nod SBH to hide a nuke inside the GDI base to kill a building. Yes the nuke has a blinking light on top of it, but it's still more hidden than it would be in Renegade. Once again, these are just simply ideas. Not suggestions, because the beta period is coming to an end soon enough. All these ideas are theoretical.
When Renegade X releases and if SBH's are OP in it like in Renegade X (or worse), believe me, the idea will start looking better and better
Stances (Prone, Standing, Crouching)
in Feedback & Bug Reports
Posted
It is still an arcade game, remember. Prone and lean take away from that feel, and so would a widening reticle. Keep in mind that it is a first and third person game too. No need to change too much from the original Renegade.