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GDI vs Nod maps


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Update Nov. 5th 2016, Ver. 5.271

Obviously whichever team is better is going to win regardless, but these are based upon two equally skilled teams given biases from map design:

Field - Nod (55/45)

Vehicle gameplay is equal for both factions, the team with better tankers will face no real bias while taking and holding the field. Usually whichever team holds the Comm center will win the game. However the tunnel opening at the Barracks is a much more effective spot than the one at the airstrip (Safely nuke 2 buildings, more exposed to Mendoza/rocket rushes). Nod can camp their side out with vehicles while GDI can't (as effectively).

Walls - GDI (60/40)

The biggest advantage GDI has over Nod is how easy it is to kill the HON as opposed to the Bar. The windows make orca/tranny rushes devastating and makes it so much easier to sneak in. GDI's base is also a lot more cramped, making it easier to respond to attacks. But the team that controls the plateau will usually win the game, and Nod has the harder end of the stick when it comes to defending against air/tranny rushes because of the size of their base, though multi-nukes with air and sniper cover is arguably the strongest tactic on the map.

Islands - GDI (65/35)

In all honesty, the team that has better tankers/snipers and repairs will win. GDI's tanks are just a lot more easier to use and to keep alive. Nod's cheaper vehicles doesn't really matter because of the huge income rate. Infantry tunnels for both teams can be scouted and covered without much hassle. 

Whiteout - Nod (70/30)

Arty spam on the hill w/ techs and laser/sniper support will beat MRLS/Gunners/APCs easily. This usually is enough to wear down most GDI teams, however if GDI survives Nod's early dominance and start rolling out their 1Ks and Mammoths/Meds, the advantage will flip around.

Lakeside - Nod (65/35) 

Although there are HoN windows, Nod has a strong advantage with SBH nukes along with Apaches. GDI has no way to prematurely plant an Ion before an Orca rush, unless Nod apaches fall asleep or an SBH spy. The barracks is also a much better spot for Nod infantry to bunker themselves in once infiltrated. 

Mesa II - Nod (60/40)

Proper Arty/tech covered by a flamer or two is still a pain in the ass to break through, but the recent AGT range buff on the map was a godsend for GDI. It means artys are only restricted to hitting 2 buildings now as opposed to all 5 as it was before the buff. However a coordinated arty-attack on the AGT can still occur and catch GDI off-guard.

Goldrush - Nod (60/40)

The field is pretty cramped, giving flamers a nice advantage over meds here. The new path also gives plenty of room for unsuspecting stank rushes. The AGT is also placed at a pretty weird spot where it doesn't cover much area.

Volcano - Nod (95/05)

Nod's early vehicle assaults and infantry rushes are very difficult to hold back, especially when combined with nukes and infiltrators. Also because of chems and the shape of the tiberium tunnel, it is easier for Nod to camp the harvester. 

Xmountain - Nod (55/45)

The barracks is more exposed to infiltration than the airstrip. GDI's base is also easy to walk in and nuke with SBH. Other than that, whichever team has better tankers/snipers will win. 

Under - GDI (90/10)->(85/15)

GDI has far more infiltration and defensive oppurtunites than Nod, and the map itself favors GDI tanks whether it be defending, in the field, or sieging. Nod can't do anything other than a PP rush which is easily shut down with mines and hotties, or maybe a rocket rush on the WF which has an extremely slim chance to succeed because of how tucked away it is behind the AGT.

Complex - 50/50

Both teams have equal strengths (GDI-Scattered Med Spam, strip Ion, WF side Gunner rush)(Nod-Stank rush, multi-nuke, Silo-Arty) given how the map is designed. Perhaps still one of the best maps in the game IMO. 

Canyon - Nod (80/20)

Almost like Volcano, but early inf-rush is less of a threat. Map also favors arty shells over straight-line shots, and is cramped well for flame tanks. 

Valley - 50/50

Team with more skill/luck wins. 

Eyes - GDI (55/45)

Stank rushes are pretty much the only thing GDI has to worry about mid-late game, while Nod usually struggles against tank/orca spam given how wide open the map is. Also HON windows is more exposed to tranny rushes than bar. 

Crash Site - GDI (60/40)

Because of the doors and size, inf rushing through the Ship is practically useless, and GT>>>Turret. The map comes down to better tankers and snipers, and same reasoning as Islands for GDI bias. 

Snow - Nod (55/45)

Because of how close the WF is to the tunnel, Nod has slight advantage here when it comes to infantry rushing. 

Tomb - GDI (70/30)->(60/40)

Just have a camper sitting in the Ref and there goes Nod's only probable infiltration target. Gunners can take on Artys/Lights early game, and when the meds arrive, the flat terrain makes straight-line shots a better choice than arty-shots.

Gobi - Nod (70/30)

Cramped. Easy for flamer/arty/tech with SBH nukes later on. 

Arctic Stronghold - GDI (60/40)

Because of how flat the terrain is around the EMP cannon, it is easier for GDI to hold it than Nod. Although stank rushes are strong given the amount of hiding spots in the lower path, GDI has a lot more rocket rush locations. After the arty spot on the AGT was taken away, they have limited usage for base pressure. 

Fort - 50/50

Again both teams have strengths that weigh each other out, such as GDI having Gunner spots on the HoN and Ref on their bunker side while Nod having multi-nukes given how spread out the buildings are. Since there's lots of inf-only areas where they can poke tanks, GDI's tank advantage is balanced out with Nod's AT inf. 

~

Ver. 5.1, List is based upon AOW and two equally skilled teams. 

Field - GDI (80/20)

Walls - GDI (60/40)

Islands - GDI (60/40)

Whiteout - Nod (70/30)

Lakeside - GDI (55/45)

Mesa II - Nod (90/10)

Goldrush - Nod (60/40)

Volcano - Nod (95/05)

Xmountain - Nod (55/45)

Under - GDI (90/10)

Complex - Nod (55/45)

Canyon - GDI (55/45)

Valley - GDI (55/45)

Eyes - Nod (60/40)

Crash Site - Nod (70/30)

Snow - 50/50

Tomb - GDI (70/30)

GrassyKnoll - GDI (85/15)

Training Yard - GDI (65/35

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Surely a good teamwork wins the game. But what about the bad or average teamwork? Which is basically the significant part of the game. I think there is a very important aspect: On many maps, players on GDI side can buy tanks, and even without teamwork, they can bring an overwhelming firepower. When meds and mlrs and mammy tanks basically herd together without cooperation they are still lethal threat. On the other side NOD players can rely only on stealth and relatively-close range armament. Such a weaponry requires sophisticated teamwork and cooperation.

See what I mean here? I think GDI without teamwork is stronger than NOD without teamwork.

I do belive the appearance of one sided maps are not in fact the map's fault. It is the fault of the obsolete Renegade-communication system and the fault of the players. War is hell.

CampinJeff, I can agree on your your description after each map, however they could be inverted as well. Many times you refer to nicely conducted vehicular, or sneaking combat. Which can be achieved by the adversaries too. I just believe on the majority of the maps, -with coordination- the opposite team can pin down the team you described dominant. Many maps are more balanced than that. I think there are only very few one-sided maps.

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I think it makes sense to diferentiate between AOW and marathon. Look at Canyon: on marathon I feel this is a totally GDI map, because of how easy it is to ion airstrip comparing to nuking barracks and also how easy it is to sneak to nod ref comparing to sneaking to gdi ref (tunnel below airstrip). But on AOW, Nod can just hold field for 40 minutes and win (which is not impossible, especially if they manage to lock GDI in base from the very beginning). It's just that it's very difficult for Nod to utilize the field advantage on Canyon, which is a big problem on marathon, where destroying buildings is the key.

Other than that:

Walls - GDI

Also GDI vehicles are much more useful in field on Walls. Meds > flame tanks (no cover on field), MRLS > Arties (no cover and also mrls are good vs. apaches while arties bad vs. orcas), even mammoths are useful.

Islands - GDI

Also, like on Canyon, it's much easier for GDI to utilize the advantage in field with ion on airstrip.

Goldrush - Nod

Not sure about that. There is no good spot for artilleries here (like there is on Mesa or Whiteout), the tunnel below airstrip helps GDI spies a lot and also sneaking is easier for GDI - you can sneak to all Nod buildings, while GDI PP and Ref are covered with base defences. I'd say it's 50/50 or even that GDI has a small advantage.

Xmountain - Nod

The vehicle area is much more GDI friendly, with a lot of open space for meds & mrls and flame tanks are dying easily. And you can't pointwhore WF with arties as effectively anymore. I'd say 50/50 on marathon, but a GDI map on AOW.

Complex - Nod

I can't agree on that. Terrible airstrip placement is what makes Complex a GDI map in my eyes. GDI can shoot Nod tanks right when they get delivered and it's very easy to ion the airstrip, too. If Nod goes for a stank rush, a good GDI team will use this opportunity to ion the strip. Also, again because of how airstrip is placed, you can exactly see what tanks Nod is building and prepare for any rush.

Snow - 50/50

Actually here I think it's a Nod map. Arties are great here, better and cheaper than meds. Also WF is closer to the wall, which makes it an easier target than HoN (especially for outside c4 from balcony, this works suprisingly well on this map). And an early chem rush can be lethal, too.

So, generally in my opinion there are only 5 maps where Nod has an advantage and about 10 where GDI has an advantage. Quite sad.

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Snow - 50/50

Actually here I think it's a Nod map. Arties are great here, better and cheaper than meds. Also WF is closer to the wall, which makes it an easier target than HoN (especially for outside c4 from balcony, this works suprisingly well on this map). And an early chem rush can be lethal, too.

In the new version (ready to be sent in for the next game update) the WF is moved back a bit, so it's no longer possible to throw C4 from the balcony onto the WF. A bigger distance from the center building should also help defend against chem/flame rushes a bit, but not entirely.

The other change is some cover in the tunnels (midway), don't know if that will balance out arties vs meds but I think it will be slightly easier to repair your tanks inside the tunnel.

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Hmm, I find these lists difficult. The team you are in influences the outcome for 90 percent and not the side you are on.

Few examples:

Valley is described as a GDI map. While Nod has far better units. Get a nice group of people together and just outside C4 the BAR without being noticed. Get a few dozas and kill off the turret. Nothing difficult with teams

Walls:

Every side has adventages and disadventages, nothing unbalanced here...

Islands:

Camp the tunnel with one APC, protect the front with another and GDI has a hard time getting in. I almost ALWAYS see some person who 'really likes to keep the game interesting' camping the tunnels. GDI can only win on these ocassions with vehicles while Nod can basicly sneak in from every entrance...

Tomb:

Also balanced if you ask me.. The moment you move out with tanks as GDI, Nod can either be back at their base from tunnels before you are... Or strike when you are moving. Not to mention the countless times we lost the ref 'cause nobody was caring'

And so on....

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Goldrush - Nod

Not sure about that. There is no good spot for artilleries here (like there is on Mesa or Whiteout), the tunnel below airstrip helps GDI spies a lot and also sneaking is easier for GDI - you can sneak to all Nod buildings, while GDI PP and Ref are covered with base defences. I'd say it's 50/50 or even that GDI has a small advantage.

Xmountain - Nod

The vehicle area is much more GDI friendly, with a lot of open space for meds & mrls and flame tanks are dying easily. And you can't pointwhore WF with arties as effectively anymore. I'd say 50/50 on marathon, but a GDI map on AOW.

Complex - Nod

I can't agree on that. Terrible airstrip placement is what makes Complex a GDI map in my eyes. GDI can shoot Nod tanks right when they get delivered and it's very easy to ion the airstrip, too. If Nod goes for a stank rush, a good GDI team will use this opportunity to ion the strip. Also, again because of how airstrip is placed, you can exactly see what tanks Nod is building and prepare for any rush.

Snow - 50/50

Actually here I think it's a Nod map. Arties are great here, better and cheaper than meds. Also WF is closer to the wall, which makes it an easier target than HoN (especially for outside c4 from balcony, this works suprisingly well on this map). And an early chem rush can be lethal, too.

So, generally in my opinion there are only 5 maps where Nod has an advantage and about 10 where GDI has an advantage. Quite sad.

Goldrush isn't the best arty map I agree, but meds also aren't fabulous either if Nod keeps up a steady stream of flames and techs. New path is also a lot more useful for Nod than GDI. Strip tunnel is still annoying, but now it's a lot less cluttered and easier to find ions.

Also from what I remember the nod turret is watching both PP doors and HON back. If somebody dedicates their time watching the bridge, that seals off PP, HON, strip, and ref sneaking.

Xmountain might seem like GDI tanks are stronger, but there are many spots where lights and stanks can exploit the terrain where they deliver damage while hiding behind cover. Arty tech is also pretty strong on the silo path with inf support. In the end, the team with better tankers will control the field, but if one team is camping, controlling the field doesn't mean all that much. For Nod however they are able to hit buildings halfway across the map, which even though rewards less points, still does something.

I actually was going to say 50/50 at first for complex, but comparing meds+ion on the strip vs stank rushes, I'd say stanks are the harder ones to counter. GDI can hit the strip drop off, but that's only if they aren't getting any resistance, which should be a rare occurrence. It isn't very difficult to deal with medspam on this map.

TBH I like how the strip is positioned here because Nod defense is not much of a nightmare with the MCTs being pretty close to each other.

I don't about snow. Arty tech can be dealt with easily by sydneys, and patches/farmlands roaming the tunnels is annoying to deal with. WF placement is more of a nuisance than anything. Points should be generally equal against two equal teams here.

I say canyon is a GDI map because of the Nod tunnel. When under siege, Nod has to watch two fronts as opposed to GDI's single entrance. Also Nods sniper perch overlooks the entire base as opposed to GDIs just watching the ref and WF. If GDI somehow loses WF, they can still win by camping, but nod without the strip is going to be overpowered easily.

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Hmm, I find these lists difficult. The team you are in influences the outcome for 90 percent and not the side you are on.

Few examples:

Valley is described as a GDI map. While Nod has far better units. Get a nice group of people together and just outside C4 the BAR without being noticed. Get a few dozas and kill off the turret. Nothing difficult with teams

Walls:

Every side has adventages and disadventages, nothing unbalanced here...

Islands:

Camp the tunnel with one APC, protect the front with another and GDI has a hard time getting in. I almost ALWAYS see some person who 'really likes to keep the game interesting' camping the tunnels. GDI can only win on these ocassions with vehicles while Nod can basicly sneak in from every entrance...

Tomb:

Also balanced if you ask me.. The moment you move out with tanks as GDI, Nod can either be back at their base from tunnels before you are... Or strike when you are moving. Not to mention the countless times we lost the ref 'cause nobody was caring'

Valley: Nod does not have better units. Patch, Mcfarland, Officer, and Mobius are very hard to kill with Nod infantry. GDI can do the same exact thing. Get a bunch of Patch and outside C4 the HON. That strat isn't unique to Nod.

Walls: Elaborate on Nod's advantages? Don't say anything stealth related because they aren't useful with a dedicated GDI defense team.

Islands: GDI doesn't need to sneak in to win. They just medspam until they get an opening to ion the strip. SBH action here are pointless against dedicated defenders.

Tomb: Oh this is definitely GDI sided. Patches roaming the inf tunnels, flat terrain, great medspam map.

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  • Totem Arts Staff

I'm planning to do something about the Balance on Tomb. Just like I did with TrainingYard

So some small (or should I say huge) changes

- Re-designed GDI Base. I swapped building locations to balance the infantry sneaking. Nod has also now the chance to sneak in and kill the GDI Refinery or Weapons Factory from the Beach route. Same for Power Plant and Barracks. They can sneak in and enter without getting shot by a GT

- Landscape material changes. The Mud road is changed to a regular dirt road with new decals. The riverbed material is swapped with extreme dry dirt

- Added rocks in front of the base entrances (infantry for cover and prevent b2b shooting

- Added some small no-collision rocks on the beach

- Got rid of the base defence at the beach base entrances

- Added sounds

And also take a look at the new GDI Base:

ikuh9rN.jpg

(NOTE: Lights are not buid yet)

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In the new version (ready to be sent in for the next game update) the WF is moved back a bit, so it's no longer possible to throw C4 from the balcony onto the WF. A bigger distance from the center building should also help defend against chem/flame rushes a bit, but not entirely.

The other change is some cover in the tunnels (midway), don't know if that will balance out arties vs meds but I think it will be slightly easier to repair your tanks inside the tunnel.

Glad to hear that Henk. Your map was the most imbalanced in favor of Nod. Close corners, tight places, just endless waves of chems popping out near the WF, officiers were turned into goo instantly, C4 fest on the MCT. After 1-2 waves the first flamer tanks started to burn the bar from the cover of the underground tunnel. Game usually ended with a nuke at the back of the bar coverer by a few flamers+techs. Out of my 15 games GDI only once was able to win probably because I snuck into Hon...

50/50 on Snow? Please... :)

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In the new version (ready to be sent in for the next game update) the WF is moved back a bit, so it's no longer possible to throw C4 from the balcony onto the WF. A bigger distance from the center building should also help defend against chem/flame rushes a bit, but not entirely.

The other change is some cover in the tunnels (midway), don't know if that will balance out arties vs meds but I think it will be slightly easier to repair your tanks inside the tunnel.

Glad to hear that Henk. Your map was the most imbalanced in favor of Nod. Close corners, tight places, just endless waves of chems popping out near the WF, officiers were turned into goo instantly, C4 fest on the MCT. After 1-2 waves the first flamer tanks started to burn the bar from the cover of the underground tunnel. Game usually ended with a nuke at the back of the bar coverer by a few flamers+techs. Out of my 15 games GDI only once was able to win probably because I snuck into Hon...

50/50 on Snow? Please... :)

It's 50/50 because both equally skilled teams have no real way to end a game through strategy. Defense is too impenetrable because of the one vehicle entrance and the one inf entrance (2 doors and balcony but both lead to same place) and bases being very cramped. Flame tanks get gunned down by meds in the long tunnel. Chem rushes are easy to counter with remotes, Patch and farland. I won most Field games as Nod but that doesn't mean it's Nod sided.

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I'm wondering if we can get some stats on the maps, amount of times won per side in particular. When I was still fiddling with the leaderboards and the data was only from the then past 2/3 weeks, Nod had much more wins in total but I realised that was because Jeff was on Nod most of the games :P But if we'd measure a longer time frame the info is probably more reliable.

Can't really relate to that Radeon, for as far as I've played games on it that scenario didn't happen a lot.

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I'm wondering if we can get some stats on the maps, amount of times won per side in particular. When I was still fiddling with the leaderboards and the data was only from the then past 2/3 weeks, Nod had much more wins in total but I realised that was because Jeff was on Nod most of the games :P But if we'd measure a longer time frame the info is probably more reliable.

As far as I know RypeL set up map stats for wins/losses for each faction, but it doesn't include all the maps and I'm not sure on its reliability (from what I remember seeing the stats some weeks ago for Walls, GDI won like ~350 games compared to Nod's ~90. Even if it's GDI sided, the numbers seem a bit extreme).

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I'm planning to do something about the Balance on Tomb. Just like I did with TrainingYard

Sounds good! My first suggestions would be to open up the rocks behind the WF to make it equal for both teams. Some kind of cover would also be nice at the back path.

Also another gripe I have about the map is the walls behind the WF and Strip. Removing them would open up more area for rushing and would make sneaking a bit easier.

Also if you haven't already touched on it, the Nod harvy gets stuck a lot.

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I placed that wall to prevent Rocket Rushes from silo

And I will check nod harverster. I haven't seen him get stuck once

Nod harvester gets stuck enough to ban the map from PUGs. Not overreacting either, last 3 PUGs had it happen. Not sure why it gets stuck, just fiddle with it if nothing else. Also wish there would be some stuck-harv fix in-game, console or vote or automatic detection or otherwise.

The landscape on the non-harvester path should also be lower at the very least on the Nod entrance. The height of those meds make them undefeatable once they mass, it would be better if they were on-height with the Nod base so Nod tanks, mainly flame, could push them out of base.

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It's 50/50 because both equally skilled teams have no real way to end a game through strategy.

I already described the strategy/scenario what happened in the majority of the games on Snow.

If teams were equally skilled don't expect chems frontally assaulting the camping officiers in the corner near the WF back entrance, they just take the other entrance only threatened temporarily by a few units from the bar side who were slow to react to save the WF. Or the chems just melt the officiers and fartlands wit some loss.

Apparently we experienced very different results on Snow, and statistically speaking you witnessed a 50/50 ratio while I witnessed a 95/5, weight it with all the players who were in the game (~25-35 players from my side) and we have approximetly a 62/38 ratio. But I'd love to see the real statistics for it.

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And I will check nod harverster. I haven't seen him get stuck once

lol, do you even play your own map?

Also you should have seen it because it happened on a pug when you were on.

On PUG I quit after 2 to 3 matches because I got to go. And on regular servers the game ends too fast

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Check your pathing, if there's a cross on the path line, it's bad and needs to be fixed. You also will want to look out for the path coloring. I don't know what they mean exactly, but white seems to be a universal path (vehicle/person). Some color might mean that the path is quite weaker than normal

Then try to watch the harvester dump its' load a couple of times. It might take more than two dumps before something wrong finally occurs. Perhaps some bot can also contribute to simulate how harvester works in the heat of battle, but I'm not sure

Online game may or may not affect how Harvester works.

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Found this post on a forum regarding Path colours.

https://forums.epicgames.com/threads/67 ... ode-colors

The coloration of the path line tells you what kind of a path it is (ground, flying, jump) and how wide it is.

- Blue - narrow path

- Green - normal width

- White - wide path

- Pink - very wide path

- Orange - Flying path, narrow

- Light Orange - Flying path, wide

- Light Purple - requires high jump (higher than normal jump capability)

- Yellow - forced path

- Purple - "advanced" path (requires "intelligence" to be used)

- Straight lines mean the bot can run, jump, or crouch-walk along the path

- Curved lines mean the bot needs to use a translocator to take the path

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I agree with pretty much everything on your list, but IMO Under is not quite 90/10 in favour of GDI. Mass arties with techs and 1-2 flame tanks can easily oppress GDI, I've been in games where GDI had no chance of leaving their base, let alone even getting a harvester drop. Stank rushes often work, too. From my experience it is more than 1 win in 10 games for Nod, so I would say Under is probably more like 65/35 for GDI.

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47 minutes ago, EKT-Kaiser said:

I agree with pretty much everything on your list, but IMO Under is not quite 90/10 in favour of GDI....

From my experience it is more than 1 win in 10 games for Nod, so I would say Under is probably more like 65/35 for GDI.

I don't think you know how math works. If, out of 100 games, Nod wins 1 every 10, they'll win 10, and GDI will win 90. That's literally 90 GDI/10 NOD...

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Sorry, but I am struggling to hold back the little statistician in me 9_9

Why are you even using numbers to evaluate the balance/odds, if you dont use proper win/loss data, other than anecdotal experience?!

Doesnt the controversy in this thread highlight, how many different factors may contribute to favour different strategies on different maps.

So, without objective stats (large sample), there is no way of saying that any map is biased either way... 

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41 minutes ago, YagiHige said:

I don't think you know how math works. If, out of 100 games, Nod wins 1 every 10, they'll win 10, and GDI will win 90. That's literally 90 GDI/10 NOD...

I don't think you read my post carefully enough...I said Nod wins more than 1 in 10, therefore I don't think it's 90/10 towards GDI. I am no expert in maths but I can't see anything wrong in that statement :P

@j0g32 is right, it would be interesting to see some stats to back up the arguments we make.

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@j0g32

If you play a couple hundred games on each map (public and PUGs) and understand how the game works, you can make a lot of conclusions about the balance of each map. Yes, it is somewhat subjective, but I don't see the problem. The numbers reflect Jeff's feelings & experience.

 

My comments on Jeff's update:

Under: I would never call it a 90/10 GDI map. The choke point in front of GDI base is perfectly designed for artilleries to bombard it, especially from the spot near Nod pillbox. I've seen so many games with Nod dominating.

Field: Yes, barracks are exposed to inf rushes, but you can infiltrate Nod ref as opposed to GDI ref. Nod PP is also much easier infiltrated than GDI PP. Tbh I feel like the new Field is balanced.

Tomb: never a 70/30 GDI map. The harvester side (which is imo more important than silo side) is advantageous to Nod, because of the cover for artilleries. GDI harvester is much more exposed and can be bombarded from far away, while Nod tiberium field is (for some reason) placed on lower terrain and is partly covered from meds/mrls. Also, a thing that might seem minor, but can decide the game in favour of Nod: in the first seconds, 2 crates spawn really close to each other at harv side and it's very easy to grab them both as Nod if you spawn in HoN => early APC, often game over. Finally, this map is small (or, as you wrote in your post, cramped), which is another advantage for Nod. 60/40 for Nod if you ask me.

Lakeside: on PUGs you might be right with 65/35 in favour of Nod, but in public games I feel like it's a GDI map, because it's much easier to infiltrate Nod base than GDI and organizing an apache + SBH nuke rush on a public game is usually a miracle.

 

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38 minutes ago, Quincy said:

@j0g32

If you play a couple hundred games on each map (public and PUGs) and understand how the game works, you can make a lot of conclusions about the balance of each map. Yes, it is somewhat subjective, but I don't see the problem. The numbers reflect Jeff's feelings & experience.

Under: I would never call it a 90/10 GDI map. [...]

Tomb: never a 70/30 GDI map. [...] 60/40 for Nod if you ask me.

 

I fully agree with you that accruing statistics is only a somewhat more objective measure of experience in that sense.

But you already made my point yourself: you don't agree with the numbers that @CampinJeff provided. Everyone derives the (im)balances of the teams/maps in question based on a different sample of matches, experiences, and gamemodes.

What I was trying to say is that, unless base your conclusion that "Map X is biased and favours team Y" on a common set of knowledge/data/experience, what is the implication in terms of re-balancing the teams/maps?

In fact, I should ask what is the point of discussing the (im)balance of certain maps, when the goal is not altering the maps in any way to improve balance? ;)

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1 hour ago, j0g32 said:

In fact, I should ask what is the point of discussing the (im)balance of certain maps, when the goal is not altering the maps in any way to improve balance? ;)

 

Just for fun. I like to analyse games and hear people's opinions. And who knows, maybe the mappers will look here and work on their maps.

1 hour ago, j0g32 said:

I fully agree with you that accruing statistics is only a somewhat more objective measure of experience in that sense.

But you already made my point yourself: you don't agree with the numbers that @CampinJeff provided. Everyone derives the (im)balances of the teams/maps in question based on a different sample of matches, experiences, and gamemodes.

What I was trying to say is that, unless base your conclusion that "Map X is biased and favours team Y" on a common set of knowledge/data/experience, what is the implication in terms of re-balancing the teams/maps?

Yes, this is all subjective in this thread. The numbers are subjective and only used as a scale, this is why I don't agree with everything Jeff wrote. But, since he's a very experienced player, I think his judgement is close to the truth. The truth about maps' balance can only be known by looking at the % of games won by each faction etc., but since we have no access to it (or do we?), we can only speculate basing on our experience. I see nothing wrong with that.

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Numbers don't necessarily mean GDI/Nod will win "#" games out of 10, it's just the weight of how much bias I feel the map has towards one faction over the other.

3 hours ago, Quincy said:

Under: I would never call it a 90/10 GDI map. The choke point in front of GDI base is perfectly designed for artilleries to bombard it, especially from the spot near Nod pillbox. I've seen so many games with Nod dominating.

Field: Yes, barracks are exposed to inf rushes, but you can infiltrate Nod ref as opposed to GDI ref. Nod PP is also much easier infiltrated than GDI PP. Tbh I feel like the new Field is balanced.

Tomb: never a 70/30 GDI map. The harvester side (which is imo more important than silo side) is advantageous to Nod, because of the cover for artilleries. GDI harvester is much more exposed and can be bombarded from far away, while Nod tiberium field is (for some reason) placed on lower terrain and is partly covered from meds/mrls. Also, a thing that might seem minor, but can decide the game in favour of Nod: in the first seconds, 2 crates spawn really close to each other at harv side and it's very easy to grab them both as Nod if you spawn in HoN => early APC, often game over. Finally, this map is small (or, as you wrote in your post, cramped), which is another advantage for Nod. 60/40 for Nod if you ask me.

Lakeside: on PUGs you might be right with 65/35 in favour of Nod, but in public games I feel like it's a GDI map, because it's much easier to infiltrate Nod base than GDI and organizing an apache + SBH nuke rush on a public game is usually a miracle.

Under: That's about it. Artys at their bunker location can also be hit with ramjet on the GDI hill, so they can be taken care of without too much hassle. The difference is how much easier it is to break out as GDI compared to Nod. GDI has a huge hill filled with lots of places to hide and take cover, while Nod has a flat metal platform that completely exposes you to sniper fire. When attacking a base, the distance from the entrance to the AGT compared to the Obelisk is laughably in favor for GDI. They can also hit the Ref/Strip safely outside of the base while Nod can barely hit the WF. GDI can sneak to the airstrip as well as HON/PP with smokes from the hill. Meanwhile in GDI's base, the AGT will slaughter you if you try to get to the WF, even with smoke.

Field: The only way to infiltrate Nod PP is with Sydney or Gunner, while GDI PP can be infiltrated with a tech. And since the door is facing the Nod base, the EMP cloud should be pretty obvious. You can also infiltrate the GDI Ref with smoke and/or a distraction on the AGT. 

Tomb: Yeah you're right, but I still consider it a GDI map, but perhaps not 70/30. I wouldn't consider early money crates though as a part of map design, as they can (should) be turned off in a competitive scenario for the first minute. Map is fairly small yes, particularly around the tib-field area, but the back path is a huge pain to deal with as Nod because of how easy it is for GDI to bombard the Nod base. That area is flat and wide open, perfect for meds, and is a very safe place for hotties to hide behind tanks. The gun turrets on the Wall makes it a bit easier for GDI to suppress Nod tanks hitting ref. We still need to play this in a PUG, which we haven't done in ages. Until then I'll reconsider depending on what happens. 

Lakeside: I judged mostly in a competitive scenario, so yes the PUGs. 

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1 hour ago, Quincy said:

Yes, this is all subjective in this thread. The numbers are subjective and only used as a scale, this is why I don't agree with everything Jeff wrote. But, since he's a very experienced player, I think his judgement is close to the truth. The truth about maps' balance can only be known by looking at the % of games won by each faction etc., but since we have no access to it (or do we?), we can only speculate basing on our experience. I see nothing wrong with that.

Even if we had the numbers you wouldn't get a good result. When I was fiddling with the leaderboards, the game had just recieved a big update, and all the leaderboard stats were reset. I didn't have map info but I could see how many times GDI won games vs how many timed Nod won.

I noticed Nod won a lot more matches and I tought they were made OP, but it turned out that certain very good players with win/loss ratios of higher than 5 were choosing to be on Nod for almost every game. 
My point being: With such a small player base it's very difficult to get honest stats when some epicly good, game changing players have a favourite faction which they switch to most games.

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1 minute ago, Henk said:

Even if we had the numbers you wouldn't get a good result. When I was fiddling with the leaderboards, the game had just recieved a big update, and all the leaderboard stats were reset. I didn't have map info but I could see how many times GDI won games vs how many timed Nod won.

I noticed Nod won a lot more matches and I tought they were made OP, but it turned out that certain very good players with win/loss ratios of higher than 5 were choosing to be on Nod for almost every game. 
My point being: With such a small player base it's very difficult to get honest stats when some epicly good, game changing players have a favourite faction which they switch to most games.

That, as well as faction-biased people who play by themselves on empty or very low population servers.

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I always wonder why Canyon is a Nod map now. Before Beta 5 nobody wants to play Canyon as Nod just like nobody wants to play Volcano as GDI now. At least 90% of Canyon games ended with strip end ion + meds. @CampinJeff says the primary reason is because that Nod has a hole in the rocks that allow them to jump to field in the same fashion as GDI.

Volcano is ruined by the adjustments in game balance. For quite a long time after Volcano was introduced, it is balanced really well that both teams have equal chance to win. Now even in PUG, by no means that GDI can win Volcano.

Edited by Boomer
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11 minutes ago, Boomer said:

I always wonder why Canyon is a Nod map now. Before Beta 5 nobody wants to play Canyon as Nod just like nobody wants to play Volcano as GDI now. At least 90% of Canyon games ended with strip end ion + meds. @CampinJeff says the primary reason is because that Nod has a hole in the rocks that allow them to jump to field in the same fashion as GDI.

Volcano is ruined by the adjustments in game balance. For quite a long time after Volcano was introduced, it is balanced really well that both teams have equal chance to win. Now even in PUG, by no means that GDI can win Volcano.

That hole next to HoN was a huge change because:

  1. Nod can reach the silo area faster than GDI. Before, GDI would be all over the silo by the time Nod exits their base, meaning GDI usually won the initial harvester. 
  2. LCGs/Techs arrive in the field much quicker to support the tanks mid-late game than going through the front of the base
  3. Snipers on Nod have can overlook GDI's base entrance while safely tucked in their own base, before Nod snipers had to go to the vehicle path to do something, not including the inf tunnel.

Before that it was indeed one of the most GDI-biased maps because Nod struggled in early game economy. By the time they rolled out arty/tech, GDI already has meds/hotties and even ion cannons if people were farming crates. 

But now, that one change made this one of the most Nod-favored maps in the game. Honestly I think the next step for Canyon is to redesign the field so that there'll be another vehicle path (probably around the crates next to Bar connecting to the end of the airstrip with the Rocks in between the old and new vehicle path as an infantry only area. The Tib field in the middle of the field should connect both vehicle paths).

~

As for Volcano, as much as I despise base defenses, adding a GT in between GDI Ref and PP (where that metal cross is currently at) would solve a lot of issues early game, while Nod can have a turret at the similar location in their base. That's probably all GDI would need, other than perhaps shrinking their base a little bit. 

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2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Field: The only way to infiltrate Nod PP is with Sydney or Gunner, while GDI PP can be infiltrated with a tech.

 

Isn't it the other way round? http://i.imgur.com/V8rVwU1.jpg

And I couldn't open GDI PP door without the AGT gun targetting me.

2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Under:(...)

Yeah, some valid points. But getting out of GDI base when you have 2-3 arties bombarding the choke and a flame tank by the corner isn't easy. I do think Under is a GDI map, just not 90/10.

 

2 hours ago, Henk said:

Even if we had the numbers you wouldn't get a good result. When I was fiddling with the leaderboards, the game had just recieved a big update, and all the leaderboard stats were reset. I didn't have map info but I could see how many times GDI won games vs how many timed Nod won.

I noticed Nod won a lot more matches and I tought they were made OP, but it turned out that certain very good players with win/loss ratios of higher than 5 were choosing to be on Nod for almost every game. 
My point being: With such a small player base it's very difficult to get honest stats when some epicly good, game changing players have a favourite faction which they switch to most games.

This is a good point as well.

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2 minutes ago, Quincy said:

 

Isn't it the other way round? http://i.imgur.com/V8rVwU1.jpg

And I couldn't open GDI PP door without the AGT gun targetting me.

Yeah, some valid points. But getting out of GDI base when you have 2-3 arties bombarding the choke and a flame tank by the corner isn't easy. I do think Under is a GDI map, just not 90/10.

 

This is a good point as well.

Ah, I actually never considered the left door. Interesting. The obelisk charge though is still a dead giveaway to both PP and Ref infiltration. There's no way to walk in on your own without the Obelisk making sounds, making it pretty easy to defend with a dedicated defender. WF can be taken down quietly. 

From what I remember I could but just barely, but if you can't the GDI PP is more prone to rushing as the AGT rocket isn't going to hit people running inside the building. Rushing the Nod PP is more risky because the OB will for sure get a pick or two. 

I'm still convinced Under being insanely lopsided. Even if GDI is choked in, Nod can't blow up buildings with tanks unless GDI has no vehicles (which shouldn't ever happen) because of the lack of buildings to whore on and because of the long, medium tank friendly distance from the base entrance to the AGT. 

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I see your points, Jeff! But I'll stick to my opinions.

And about Canyon: @Boomer I think the veterancy system was what helped Nod most on that map.

It's always been relatively easy for Nod to control the field & destroy GDI harvester on Canyon, especially in the early game. But before veterancy, Nod couldn't get much from it. Sure, GDI was locked in base, but it was still very hard to destroy a building and the moment Nod stopped buying vehicles, GDI could do meds + ion at the end of strip and game over. 

Right now (especially after veterancy gain rate was increased), it's enough to destroy a few GDI harvesters and maybe damage barracks' health and your whole team's veteran. This makes it very difficult for GDI to break the siege. And even if they somehow manage to, turning the game around and locking Nod in their base seems impossible.

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