Tech/Hotty Split

[HaTe]

Here was my idea from before the game was even released (and experiencing the character purchase imbalance in Renegade strongly):

Two Hotwire/Technician options for each team. Both cost the standard 350 credits.

(To give you perspective - the weak repair gun (engineer) in Renegade does -2 damage, and the strong does -4 per second to everything).

One will be infantry/mine/beacon repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all infantry units and beacons, and doing -5 damage per second to all c4s/mines. To buildings and vehicles, however, this unit's repair gun only does -2 damage per second . The character will then also have: 3 remote c4s, but after laying 2 there is a 6 second reload time in order to lay the third one; one timed c4; a pistol; and the default proximity mines.

The other will be vehicle/building repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all buildings and vehicles, and doing -5 damage per second repairing any building, but not when repairing the MCT (so when targeting the actual building). To infantry, mines/c4s, and beacons, this unit will do -2 damage per second. The character will then also have: 2 remote c4s; 2 timed c4s; a pistol; and a new set of anti-tank mines that are limited per player (rather than per team) at 3 per player. These mines don't count against the mine limit for the team in anyway, and instead are limited solely at 3 anti-tank mines per player. These mines are designed to explode only when a heavy unit (vehicles, not infantry) goes over them. They each do 55 damage to any vehicle (proximity mines do about 30), but cannot be put within 3 yards of each other - if this happens, the mine trying to be laid down will automatically disarm. This is to try and help the fact that proximity mines are pretty useless against tanks as is.

Obviously since then, the Anti-Tank mines have been added into the game in a different sort of way. I still think that that they should be merged into a character role though (since hardly anyone ever purchases them as is). I still stand by this idea and wish it was a thing.

As far as sidearms go, I still say my original solution for that is the best one that I have seen so far (and I do often change my mind when I see a better solution, have you).

[RoundShades]

Two Hotwire/Technician options for each team. Both cost the standard 350 credits.

(To give you perspective - the weak repair gun (engineer) in Renegade does -2 damage, and the strong does -4 per second to everything).

One will be infantry/mine/beacon repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all infantry units and beacons, and doing -5 damage per second to all c4s/mines. and the default proximity mines.

The other will be vehicle/building repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all buildings and vehicles, and doing -5 damage per second repairing any building, but not when repairing the MCT (so when targeting the actual building) ; and a new set of anti-tank mines that are limited per player (rather than per team) at 3 per player. These mines don't count against the mine limit for the team in anyway, and instead are limited solely at 3 anti-tank mines per player. These mines are designed to explode only when a heavy unit (vehicles, not infantry) goes over them. They each do 55 damage to any vehicle (proximity mines do about 30), but cannot be put within 3 yards of each other - if this happens, the mine trying to be laid down will automatically disarm. This is to try and help the fact that proximity mines are pretty useless against tanks as is.

Eh. To be fair, APB implemented a lot of that in different ways, pretty much just seperated out differently.

It worked, from a game mechanic perspective. Really it wouldn't be bad to have anything that isn't an engineer class that can do 80% of the tasks in Renegade "sufficiently enough". Even if that class was split into 2 or even 3, 1 being structural based and 1 being field based and/or 1 being vehicle based. Because APB had technicians, mechanics, and medics.

This takes a drastic turn from legacy, but it's one of many options.

I also liked the tank mine thing, that would totally be a reasonable addition to a mechanic or field repair class, as a variation of the proxy infantry mines the structural ones can have. They just need the damage flipped so they do moderate but not severe damage to a tank, perhaps none to an APC to make them serve as sweepers (maybe not), and particularly to be semi-useless against infantry (around 25 damage)

[HaTe]

It's more of a copy from PS2 than it is APB, really

[RoundShades]

It's more of a copy from PS2 than it is APB, really

Fair enough. PS2 didn't have "real" base repair and the engineers didn't do exactly that. Really, they were more "vehicle mechanics with stationary mountable guns".

In my opinion, PS2 was closer to TF2, they had an engineer and medic seperate too, did same things PS2 ones did, except for the addition of vehicles and mech suits and the engineer getting repair over those while medic gets infantry coverage.

But both games do demonstrate, that maybe it was always "better design choice" to divide up that role. Renegade was 2001, it predates this so it is possible it was just so early in creation that it didn't do it. Maybe it actually could benefit from being divided if it was tried?

[HaTe]

It's more of a copy from PS2 than it is APB, really

Fair enough. PS2 didn't have "real" base repair and the engineers didn't do exactly that. Really, they were more "vehicle mechanics with stationary mountable guns".

In my opinion, PS2 was closer to TF2, they had an engineer and medic seperate too, did same things PS2 ones did, except for the addition of vehicles and mech suits and the engineer getting repair over those while medic gets infantry coverage.

But both games do demonstrate, that maybe it was always "better design choice" to divide up that role. Renegade was 2001, it predates this so it is possible it was just so early in creation that it didn't do it. Maybe it actually could benefit from being divided if it was tried?

2002* for release (and patches) at least. But yeah, I mean, X has already added features from "newer" games into the mechanics that have worked really well (sprint, spotting, map voting, etc.). If we don't keep learning from them and using them appropriately, then I think the game just becomes more of Renegade HD; which this game certainly isn't.

[yosh56]

Somebody please make that topic for having the Hotwire and Technician have 2 separate forms: A utility form and an Specialist one. Same class, same person, just 2 load-outs to cut down on making any new models or anything. Think kind of like the arrows on the tier 3 infantry in OldRen that were used for switching their skins, except these would actually change the character's load-out without changing the character itself.

On top: SBHs having sidearms is iffy. On one hand their biggest drawback in vanilla is the fact that the laser rifle is about as subtle as a gay pride parade. This was their largest balancing point: they are stealthy, and good at ambushes, but once they're out the jig is up and they better have not fired off their rave guns without making sure no other enemies were going to react to it.

Being able to carry something like the Super-silenced Carbine 'fits' the stealth role more, but it fits it so well that it completely breaks the balance that was put in place.

SBHs using the tib weapons... well I still just hate the way tib weapons were implemented anyway. I don't voice it a lot, but I wouldn't even care if they totally dropped out of the game without explanation.

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Once more, I simply like the idea of breaking up sidearms into the two categories of actual sidearms, which have infinite ammo/replace the pistol whilst not being super amazing, and second primaries that could be something like Carbine or Tib-Auto rifles: just as strong as a tier 1-2 weapon but replace C4, effectively turning you into a full assault class with full focus on just being a killing machine.

[HaTe]

Bump - Split from Sidearm balance topic.

[HaTe]

I'm gonna bump this to get more opinions on it.

[RoundShades]

Eh, I already shared my opinion of it. It definitely would at least make... 2-3 more classes overused, instead of just 1... but they might still be overused is the problem. You would need quite a many mechanics/field engis for tanks and quite a many structural/base engis for combat, and a medical one or two if they also existed.

[HaTe]

Eh, I already shared my opinion of it. It definitely would at least make... 2-3 more classes overused, instead of just 1... but they might still be overused is the problem. You would need quite a many mechanics/field engis for tanks and quite a many structural/base engis for combat, and a medical one or two if they also existed.

I'd rather have 1 character purchased 20% of the time and another 30% than just having one purchased 50%. It's more about making the current hotwire/technician less universal though. Splitting up their role so that they can still do the things they have always done, but they will be more efficient at doing something more specific. I don't really understand your second point, because the mechanic based character would be just as efficient at repairing vehicles as the current hotwire/technician is. The same goes for the infantry based one. They even are a little bit better at their specific role, just not as good at doing the other half of their role.